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From "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
Date Sun, 05 Jul 2015 00:38:45 GMT
It's my opinion based on accepted practice (and the way I and fellow directors addressed non-technical
disputes taken to the board). We've been operating like this since day one. Most project bye
laws (that I've read) acknowledge the. E.g. 

Forrest: For more information about the way that Apache projects operate, please refer to
the ASF foundation and ASF developer sections of the ASF website, including the ASF ByLaws
and the How it works document, the FAQs about the Foundation, and the Incubator project.

Hive: Hive is typical of Apache projects in that it operates under a set of principles, known
collectively as the 'Apache Way'. If you are new to Apache development, please refer to the
Incubator Project for more information on how Apache projects operate.

Looking specifically at a code of conduct, the foundation has one and projects are expected
to adopt it, or define something similar. It's part of the Apache Way. Note the code is deliberately
written to allow appropriate flexibility for such a complex topic.

Ross


-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2015 3:46 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere as a part of the rules
of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where?

Best regards,


Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
> Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:35 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF 
> (spin-off of Better specifying....)
>
> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects 
> (at least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting) 
> to establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for 
> being a project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from 
> that is that the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project 
> until that condition is met.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < 
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the
> Apache
> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in 
> > the spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
> >
> > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > ________________________________
> > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
> > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:16 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF 
> > (spin-off of Better specifying....)
> >
> > Off list?
> >
> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't distill 
> > anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
> >
> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to 
> > the community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community 
> > over Code aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre
> >
> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < 
> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com 
> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het
> volgende
> > geschreven:
> >
> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct 
> > > was not kind here.
> > >
> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
> > >
> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing 
> > > paperwork
> (or
> > > the electronic equivalent).
> > >
> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN 
> > > TECH)<mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
> > > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 10:08 AM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> (spin-off
> > > of Better specifying....)
> > >
> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading 
> > > passport
> (our
> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
> > situations
> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the 
> > > default applies. Most projects are happy with the default and 
> > > prefer to write
> > code
> > > instead.
> > >
> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the 
> > > spirit of the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can 
> > > turn to the PMC
> (and
> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
> > >
> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the 
> > > documentation
> is
> > > there. E.g.
> > >
> >
> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.h
> tml
> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > >
> > > Ross
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
> > > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 9:34 AM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF 
> > > (spin-off
> of
> > > Better specifying....)
> > >
> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office
> > policing
> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in
> their
> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
> > > incorporate
> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> > > >>
> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to 
> > > > make
> sure
> > > that
> > > > exactly this happened.
> > >
> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board 
> > > for
> > this
> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA 
> > > podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without 
> > > knowing
> > details
> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also 
> > > at
> the
> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings
> graduating
> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of 
> > > bylaws or
> > not.
> > >
> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct 
> > > of
> the
> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - 
> > > that
> IPMC
> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that 
> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that 
> > > they consider it optional.
> > >
> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan 
> > > till May
> > is
> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a 
> > > TLP) where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up 
> > > to now
> those
> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache 
> > > Aurora,
> > Apache
> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a 
> > > set of bylaws at all by the board.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has 
> > > led
> to
> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it
> harder
> > to
> > > tell a unified story to the outside world...
> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being 
> > > under
> > the
> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and 
> > > the Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the 
> > > contributors interact. About how to do just to all contributors, 
> > > not how to favour a few....
> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning
> defining
> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how 
> > > the project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors 
> > > visavis privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
> > >
> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in 
> > > the projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the 
> > > board
> keep
> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
> > project's
> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Pierre Smits
> > >
> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for 
> > > Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & 
> > > Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz < 
> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few 
> > > > paragraphs
> of
> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> > > >
> > > > -Bertrand
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz 
> > > > <bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** This code of 
> > > > > conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache Software 
> > > > > Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing 
> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other 
> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of 
> > > > > conduct
> > which
> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified 
> > > > > in
> the
> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > > > >
> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who 
> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, 
> > > > > or
> > claims
> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related 
> > > > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > > > >
> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from 
> > > > > here on)
> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for Cloud- 
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade 
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
>
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