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From "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
Date Fri, 03 Jul 2015 07:41:49 GMT
+1

You want an exec officer to be responsible for the CoC, it's the President.

Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: hedhman@gmail.com [mailto:hedhman@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Niclas Hedhman
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2015 12:14 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct

As Jan is saying, this is simply not accurate.
"Official Policy" must be followed by all projects, and anyone can raise the concerns to various
committees or board, when they think there is ongoing violation and no interest from a project
to rectify it.


Legal Policy (which is not only that the project must use ALv2, but also about what can be
dependent upon, how to package tarballs with LICENSE and NOTICE files, and policy around patents)
is just one out of a handful policies that must be complied with, by ALL projects.
Branding and Code of Conduct are two other. How to package, sign, and distribute releases
is another...

So, if "at least one of its members in more than one occasion states that projects are independent
(of the ASF) regarding how they conduct their business" happens, then call that out for what
it is...

Cheers
Niclas

On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 6:05 PM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com> wrote:

> It is a good thing that the board and the President regard the Code of 
> Conduct page as an official ASF policy and expect others to follow it, 
> but when at least one of its members in more than one occasion states 
> that projects are independent (of the ASF) regarding how they conduct 
> their business - except for the license aspect - it is rendered a paper tiger...
>
> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office 
> policing it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it 
> in their bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not 
> to incorporate it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement.
>
> Something to think about when making statement like these....
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> Op donderdag 2 juli 2015 heeft Shane Curcuru <asf@shanecurcuru.org> 
> het volgende geschreven:
>
> > On 6/30/15 2:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 06/30/2015 12:37 PM, Stefan Reich wrote:
> > >> I'm almost tired of criticizing so much, but... I think a "code 
> > >> of conduct"
> > >> is evil legalese and should be abandoned.
> > >>
> > >> Like Jesus said: "Love is the only law you need."
> > >
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out for us so far.
> >
> > More to the point, the board and the President have made it clear 
> > that the current CoC is an official ASF policy, so for interactions 
> > at ASF events or on our mailing lists, we expect people to follow it 
> > when working here on Apache projects.
> >
> > Obviously, other organizations or individuals can choose to use (or 
> > not) their own CoCs for their own projects, but this is the one 
> > we've chosen here.
> >
> > - Shane
> >
> > >
> > > A CoC serves several real needs. Publicly stating that we have 
> > > such an expectation makes the ASF more welcoming to joiners. It 
> > > also makes explicit some of the expectations for people who bull 
> > > through life without thinking about their interactions.
> > >
> > > Google for 'why we need a code of conduct' and then click on a 
> > > link at random and you'll get a more articulate statement of why 
> > > this is absolutely critical to an organization like ours that 
> > > spans cultures, timezones, projects, and many other borders.
> > >
> > > It is simply not the case that people just naturally know the 
> > > right way to behave. And it is the case that we need to have given 
> > > careful
> thought
> > > to what we're going to do about it when people are jerks.
> > >
> > > Even Jesus violently threw people out of the temple when they 
> > > broke the code of conduct.
> > >
> > > --Rich
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >> Stefan
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz 
> > >> <bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of 
> > >>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly 
> > >>> broad, and I tend to agree.
> > >>>
> > >>> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave 
> > >>> in
> any
> > >>> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which 
> > >>> implies that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I 
> > >>> don't think
> that's
> > >>> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the
> Apache
> > >>> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe 
> > >>> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF".
> > >>>
> > >>> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory.
> > >>>
> > >>> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder 
> > >>> while talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while 
> > >>> considered "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of 
> > >>> that document) in others. We might ask people to refrain from 
> > >>> doing that in our multi-cultural environment where we need to go 
> > >>> down to some common denominator of acceptable behavior, but we 
> > >>> can't blame them for doing that where it's culturally acceptable 
> > >>> and even expected. The same
> goes
> > >>> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely 
> > >>> between cultures.
> > >>>
> > >>> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own 
> > >>> territory.
> > >>>
> > >>> I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to 
> > >>> clarify
> > >>> that:
> > >>>
> > >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** This code of 
> > >>> conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache Software 
> > >>> Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing lists, 
> > >>> issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other 
> > >>> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct
> which
> > >>> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified 
> > >>> in the published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > >>>
> > >>> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who 
> > >>> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or
> claims
> > >>> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related 
> > >>> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > >>>
> > >>> This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here 
> > >>> on)
> > >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > >>>
> > >>> What do people think?
> > >>> -Bertrand
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
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--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java
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