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From "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
Date Sat, 04 Jul 2015 22:28:28 GMT
No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the Apache Way apply. If they
have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the
specifics of that project.

Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:16 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Off list?

I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't
distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.

So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the
community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over Code
aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?

Best regards,

Pierre

Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het volgende
geschreven:

> Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was not
> kind here.
>
> First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
>
> The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing paperwork (or
> the electronic equivalent).
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
> Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 10:08 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
> of Better specifying....)
>
> The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport (our
> the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most situations
> in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the default
> applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write code
> instead.
>
> Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit of
> the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC (and
> if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
>
> It's always possible to better document things, but the documentation is
> there. E.g.
> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
> and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>
> Ross
>
>
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
> Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 9:34 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
> Better specifying....)
>
> >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing
> >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
> >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
> incorporate
> >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> >>
> > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure
> that
> > exactly this happened.
>
> Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for this
> year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
> reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing details
> could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at the
> board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings graduating
> to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or not.
>
> This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of the
> ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that IPMC
> members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
> acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
> consider it optional.
>
> What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till May is
> that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a TLP)
> where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now those
> projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora, Apache
> Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set of
> bylaws at all by the board.
>
> It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has led to
> various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it harder to
> tell a unified story to the outside world...
> The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being under the
> umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
> Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the contributors
> interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour a
> few....
> The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning defining
> the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
> project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
> privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
>
> And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
> projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board keep
> track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a project's
> bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs of
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > <bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
> > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > >
> > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims
> > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > >
> > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> >
>


--
Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

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