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From "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
Date Sun, 05 Jul 2015 00:38:02 GMT
Almost every board resolution to create a project contains...

RESOLVED, that the initial PROJECT PMC be and hereby is
  tasked with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to
  encourage open development and increased participation in the
  PROJECT; and be it further

-----Original Message-----
From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargulies@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2015 4:13 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Writing as someone who has mentored a squad of podlings, I do not believe that there is any
requirement for any project to ever adopt any bylaws at all. I was never involved where the
board ask for bylaws, and I'm faintly curious as to how that ever came to pass. The normal
process is for podlings to simply apply standard ASF procedures to manage code and community.
I view the Foundation CoC as part of that.

In fact, I told at least one podling that bylaws are a faint smell of trouble -- if you have
enough conflict to feel the need to write down the rules, you might do better working out
the reason for the conflict than writing down the rules.

However, I recognized that some communities have some inescapable stresses due to conflicting
commercial interests, and some bylaws early can be a way to head off drama later.

However, I can't imagine anyone thinking that the Foundation CoC fails to apply in the absence
of a set of bylaws. I also can't imagine any person thinking that a set of bylaws that doesn't
happen to mention the CoC somehow excludes it. Project are part of the ASF. They don't have
independent legal existence. Their 'bylaws' are not corporate, legal, bylaws, they are just
a memorialization of their policies. They don't have to be comprehensive.

On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then again, Jan stated that he thought that instilling compliance to 
> the official ASF policies, or expressions of deviation thereof, in the 
> bylaws is a part of the incubation process. Is he wrong with his 
> assumption? Or does the incubator project have it mixed up somewhere and he is right?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere 
>> as a part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < 
>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
>>>
>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:35 PM
>>> To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF 
>>> (spin-off of Better specifying....)
>>>
>>> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects 
>>> (at least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier 
>>> posting) to establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding 
>>> clause for being a project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be 
>>> derived from that is that the project that don't comply can't be an 
>>> Apache project until that condition is met.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Pierre Smits
>>>
>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for Cloud-

>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade 
>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < 
>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if 
>>> > the
>>> Apache
>>> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in 
>>> > the spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> > ________________________________
>>> > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>>> > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:16 PM
>>> > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
>>> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF 
>>> > (spin-off of Better specifying....)
>>> >
>>> > Off list?
>>> >
>>> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't distill 
>>> > anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
>>> >
>>> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to 
>>> > the community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the 
>>> > Community over
>>> Code
>>> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
>>> >
>>> > Best regards,
>>> >
>>> > Pierre
>>> >
>>> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < 
>>> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com 
>>> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het
>>> volgende
>>> > geschreven:
>>> >
>>> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct 
>>> > > was
>>> not
>>> > > kind here.
>>> > >
>>> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
>>> > >
>>> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing 
>>> > > paperwork
>>> (or
>>> > > the electronic equivalent).
>>> > >
>>> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> > > ________________________________
>>> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN 
>>> > > TECH)<mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
>>> > > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 10:08 AM
>>> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
>>> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
>>> (spin-off
>>> > > of Better specifying....)
>>> > >
>>> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading 
>>> > > passport
>>> (our
>>> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
>>> > situations
>>> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the
>>> default
>>> > > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to 
>>> > > write
>>> > code
>>> > > instead.
>>> > >
>>> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the 
>>> > > spirit
>>> of
>>> > > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the 
>>> > > PMC
>>> (and
>>> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
>>> > >
>>> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the 
>>> > > documentation
>>> is
>>> > > there. E.g.
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model
>>> .html
>>> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>>> > >
>>> > > Ross
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> > > ________________________________
>>> > > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>>> > > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 9:34 AM
>>> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
>>> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF 
>>> > > (spin-off
>>> of
>>> > > Better specifying....)
>>> > >
>>> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing 
>>> > > >> office
>>> > policing
>>> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill
it 
>>> > > >> in
>>> their
>>> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not

>>> > > >> to
>>> > > incorporate
>>> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
>>> > > >>
>>> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to

>>> > > > make
>>> sure
>>> > > that
>>> > > > exactly this happened.
>>> > >
>>> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the 
>>> > > board for
>>> > this
>>> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA 
>>> > > podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which 
>>> > > without knowing
>>> > details
>>> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
>>> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked 
>>> > > also at
>>> the
>>> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings
>>> graduating
>>> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of 
>>> > > bylaws or
>>> > not.
>>> > >
>>> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of 
>>> > > conduct of
>>> the
>>> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
>>> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - 
>>> > > that
>>> IPMC
>>> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that 
>>> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that 
>>> > > they consider it optional.
>>> > >
>>> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan 
>>> > > till
>>> May
>>> > is
>>> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as 
>>> > > a
>>> TLP)
>>> > > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to 
>>> > > now
>>> those
>>> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache 
>>> > > Aurora,
>>> > Apache
>>> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
>>> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a 
>>> > > set
>>> of
>>> > > bylaws at all by the board.
>>> > >
>>> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects 
>>> > > has
>>> led to
>>> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making 
>>> > > it
>>> harder
>>> > to
>>> > > tell a unified story to the outside world...
>>> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while 
>>> > > being
>>> under
>>> > the
>>> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct 
>>> > > and the Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how 
>>> > > the
>>> contributors
>>> > > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to 
>>> > > favour
>>> a
>>> > > few....
>>> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning
>>> defining
>>> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about 
>>> > > how the project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of 
>>> > > contributors visavis privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
>>> > >
>>> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in 
>>> > > the projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't 
>>> > > the board
>>> keep
>>> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
>>> > project's
>>> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
>>> > >
>>> > > Best regards,
>>> > >
>>> > > Pierre Smits
>>> > >
>>> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions
for 
>>> > > Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail &

>>> > > Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
>>> > >
>>> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz < 
>>> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org
>>> > > > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > Hi,
>>> > > >
>>> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few 
>>> > > > paragraphs
>>> of
>>> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > -Bertrand
>>> > > >
>>> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz 
>>> > > > <bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
>>> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** This code
of 
>>> > > > > conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache Software

>>> > > > > Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing

>>> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other

>>> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of

>>> > > > > conduct
>>> > which
>>> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is 
>>> > > > > codified in
>>> the
>>> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone
who 
>>> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally,

>>> > > > > or
>>> > claims
>>> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any 
>>> > > > > Foundation-related activities and especially when representing
the ASF, in any role.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from

>>> > > > > here
>>> on)
>>> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Pierre Smits
>>> >
>>> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for

>>> > Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & 
>>> > Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>

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