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From: Noah Slater <nslater@apache.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 12:08:46 +0000
Message-ID: 
 <CAPaJBx7nQhuvZJb_5uReKyOxiNc9ET0AqENs-99=2_=AMSzu9w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Code of Conduct - links to why they are needed etc
To: dev@community.apache.org
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Jan,

Late to the party here, sorry. But I wanna reply to your point that the CoC
is not meant to be enforceable.

That is not the case, as I understand it. Indeed, an unenforceable or
not-regularly-enforced CoC is not worthless, it's actually *harmful* and
dangerous for marginalised people in our community. Because we are
communicating to them that we have certain standards, and then not taking
any action to make sure that those standards are met.

A community is, in many ways, defined by whatever its leaders are prepared
to tolerate. Our CoC is, and should continue to be, a document that
outlines what we do not tolerate. And for that to mean anything, we need to
put our money where our mouth is and enforce it.

And this shouldn't be optional for podlings or projects. This should apply
across the board, for the whole org, like the foundation's bylaws
themselves. Or again, it is useless.

To make that work, we need to add three things:

1. A clear way for the document to be updated. We have a model on CouchDB
(which is where the doc came from) and we can simply port that the
Community PMC, where people can come to discuss changes.

2. We need a foundation-level reporting mechanism (again, presumably
coordinating this through the Community PMC)

3. We need clearly defined enforcement guidelines or punitive measures, so
that people know what action will be taken, and when


On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 at 21:14 jan i <jani@apache.org> wrote:

> On 20 December 2014 at 20:55, Louis Su=C3=A1rez-Potts <luispo@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > > On 20 Dec 2014, at 09:50, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > This is great and, as noted, long overdue. Although the code
> > > itself "simply" codifies what had been the tribal knowledge
> > > of the ASF, and how we'd expected people to behave, NOT having
> > > it written down was pretty sad.
> > >
> > > Thx to all for making it happen.
> > >
> > >> On Dec 20, 2014, at 6:33 AM, sebb <sebbaz@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> There are some useful links in the CoC blog:
> > >>
> > >>
> > https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/asf_
> publishes_long_overdue_code
> > >>
> > >> For example,
> > >> Ashe Dryden's introductory resource for learning more about how Code=
s
> > >> of Conduct can help
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps these should be added to the ASF CoC page at
> > >>
> > >> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html
> > >
> >
> > So, now that it is written down=E2=80=94great=E2=80=94does this mean th=
en that we will be
> > asking all new projects (and podlings and everything else) to
> obligatorily
> > review it? As part of the Apache Way? That is, what is the relationship
> > between this CoC and the Apache Way from the perspective of the new
> member
> > to Apache?
> >
>
> maybe I see it wrong, but to me a "code of conduct" is more a guideline
> than an actual rulebook. It is a description of how we would like to
> interact with other, and therefore not something that should be used as
> "you did not follow the code of conduct, so now I take action".
>
> I think it is important to see both the "apache way" and "code of conduct=
"
> as guidelines, not something formulated by lawyers to stand up in court.
>
> So in essence we should all be aware of what the intention is and that
> includes podlings coming to apache.
>
> rgds
> jan i.
>
>
> > Louis
> >
> >
>

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