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From jan i <j...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Code of Conduct - links to why they are needed etc
Date Wed, 25 Mar 2015 14:13:26 GMT
On 25 March 2015 at 13:08, Noah Slater <nslater@apache.org> wrote:

> Jan,
>
> Late to the party here, sorry. But I wanna reply to your point that the CoC
> is not meant to be enforceable.
>
> That is not the case, as I understand it. Indeed, an unenforceable or
> not-regularly-enforced CoC is not worthless, it's actually *harmful* and
> dangerous for marginalised people in our community. Because we are
> communicating to them that we have certain standards, and then not taking
> any action to make sure that those standards are met.
>

Maybe I should have spent more words. Of course there are CoC items that
should and  can be enforced, but to me there
are also some with quite some elastic built in. For example we have a CoC
for email, do not use he/she and be polite. The first
part is easy to enforce, but the second part ? what you see as polite might
not be polite to me.


>
> A community is, in many ways, defined by whatever its leaders are prepared
> to tolerate. Our CoC is, and should continue to be, a document that
> outlines what we do not tolerate. And for that to mean anything, we need to
> put our money where our mouth is and enforce it.
>
I agree the CoC needs to contain what is not to be tolerated and will be
enforced. But may the rest is CoC good practice, which
to me is just as important for new people.


>
> And this shouldn't be optional for podlings or projects. This should apply
> across the board, for the whole org, like the foundation's bylaws
> themselves. Or again, it is useless.
>
> To make that work, we need to add three things:
>
> 1. A clear way for the document to be updated. We have a model on CouchDB
> (which is where the doc came from) and we can simply port that the
> Community PMC, where people can come to discuss changes.
>
+1

>
> 2. We need a foundation-level reporting mechanism (again, presumably
> coordinating this through the Community PMC)
>
I would not like the community PMC to become judges or police, ideally the
PMC should deal with it, and if they fail
we need an escalation mechanism.


>
> 3. We need clearly defined enforcement guidelines or punitive measures, so
> that people know what action will be taken, and when
>
+1

I hope that made my point a bit clearer, I do not think we disagree as such.

rgds
jan i.


>
> On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 at 21:14 jan i <jani@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > On 20 December 2014 at 20:55, Louis Suárez-Potts <luispo@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > > On 20 Dec 2014, at 09:50, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > This is great and, as noted, long overdue. Although the code
> > > > itself "simply" codifies what had been the tribal knowledge
> > > > of the ASF, and how we'd expected people to behave, NOT having
> > > > it written down was pretty sad.
> > > >
> > > > Thx to all for making it happen.
> > > >
> > > >> On Dec 20, 2014, at 6:33 AM, sebb <sebbaz@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> There are some useful links in the CoC blog:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/asf_
> > publishes_long_overdue_code
> > > >>
> > > >> For example,
> > > >> Ashe Dryden's introductory resource for learning more about how
> Codes
> > > >> of Conduct can help
> > > >>
> > > >> Perhaps these should be added to the ASF CoC page at
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html
> > > >
> > >
> > > So, now that it is written down—great—does this mean then that we will
> be
> > > asking all new projects (and podlings and everything else) to
> > obligatorily
> > > review it? As part of the Apache Way? That is, what is the relationship
> > > between this CoC and the Apache Way from the perspective of the new
> > member
> > > to Apache?
> > >
> >
> > maybe I see it wrong, but to me a "code of conduct" is more a guideline
> > than an actual rulebook. It is a description of how we would like to
> > interact with other, and therefore not something that should be used as
> > "you did not follow the code of conduct, so now I take action".
> >
> > I think it is important to see both the "apache way" and "code of
> conduct"
> > as guidelines, not something formulated by lawyers to stand up in court.
> >
> > So in essence we should all be aware of what the intention is and that
> > includes podlings coming to apache.
> >
> > rgds
> > jan i.
> >
> >
> > > Louis
> > >
> > >
> >
>

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