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From sebb <>
Subject Re: Apache Way talks
Date Mon, 16 Feb 2015 17:50:06 GMT
On 16 February 2015 at 16:51, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
<> wrote:
> I think that's exactly it. If we write policy down it becomes a rule.


Written policy only becomes a rule if the document declares it as such
- or perhaps, fails to declare it as policy.

There seem to be a lot of unwritten rules and unwritten policy in the ASF.
I think this is why there are so many arguments about what is
absolutely required and what is best practice.

Also that some rules are stated without providing the rationale.

> Rules work great when every environment is the same, but that's not the real world.

That suggests that rules are completely unnecessary.
I don't believe that is the case.

It ought to be possible to start from a strict requirement - for
example, being able to establish provenance of code - and derive some
fundamental rules from that.

If a rule is stated without any background, it just becomes something
to argue over, and edge cases are more difficult to resolve.
Whereas if the rationale for a rule is documented, edge cases can be
checked against the rationale.

> We do, as a group of individuals, have the tendency to assume the way things are done
in project Foo is the entirety of The Apache Way. In fact what is done in Foo is a superset
of the Apache Way, designed for that specific project.
> Consider Committer = PMC for example. The Apache Way only says that both groups should
be merit based (I.e. no cabals or BD). It says nothing about what the merit levels are or
whether they should be the same or different for each group. Yet, somehow, many people will
express their experience as being an immutable part of the Apache Way.
> Individual experience should help inform other community members, but it shouldn't restrict
> Ross
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: jan i<>
> Sent: ‎2/‎16/‎2015 8:43 AM
> To:<>
> Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
> s
> On 16 February 2015 at 17:21, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> wrote:
>> I agree Joe,
>> We only have a very few immutable rules. Everything else is policy. As
>> long as policy don't break those immutable rules the they can shift and
>> change as much as they need to in order to empower individual project
>> communities.
>> Coincidentally I wrote a presentation on this very topic last night. I'll
>> look to share it once it has been delivered, but too late for me to add to
>> the CFP.
> I agree with you both.....only being a relative new member, it is often
> quite hard to see what is official policy and what is just the opinion of
> some members.
> The rules are clear, and in my opinion,  protect our values.
> Maybe we are back in another old discussion, that some of our policies are
> not defined, but merely "we use to do".
> rgds
> jan I.
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> ________________________________
>> From: Joe Brockmeier<>
>> Sent: ‎2/‎16/‎2015 8:01 AM
>> To:<>
>> Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
>> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015, at 01:38 PM, jan i wrote:
>> > I have a feeling that we are standing at a crossroad where  many
>> > questions like Directd funding, ApacheCON, entry ticket to ASF
>> (Incubator/pTLP)
>> > tear us apart, and I believe it is high time the members of ASF take a
>> stand
>> > (whatever it may be), and show we are ONE united in the APACHE WAY.
>> I'm not sure directed funding, handling ApacheCon, etc. are immutable or
>> define The Apache Way.
>> We can allow (or not) directed funding and still practice community over
>> code, merit, openness, etc.
>> The fact that a large and diverse membership do not agree on these
>> issues need not "tear us apart" if we can discuss and resolve issues
>> without animosity. If we agree that "community over code" is one of the
>> defining aspects of Apache, surely we can also agree that the community
>> is also more important than folks having their way over whether or not
>> Apache allows (or experiments with) directed funding or other models of
>> promoting/sustaining projects and their infrastructure.
>> Best,
>> jzb
>> --
>> Joe Brockmeier
>> Twitter: @jzb

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