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From Joseph Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com>
Subject Re: How can we support a faster release cadence?
Date Thu, 13 Feb 2014 23:42:21 GMT
Change is hard, we aren't a tiny org and we do have an opinion about how things should be done.
 That's all I'll say about the git stuff.

But let's face reality for a moment- Cordova has averaged one release a month for the past
seven months.  Why then is a three day window a dealbreaker?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 13, 2014, at 5:04 PM, Hadrian Zbarcea <hzbarcea@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Not sure if it's a mischaracterization. I have the same understanding as Benson that
that many comments on git threads reflected the perception that git/github are incompatible
with ASF. Not the point however.
> 
> What I see again is, for the most part, violent agreement that turns into lengthy threads
that have a ddos effect (at least on me). What I get is that:
> * votes are important, no vote no release (little to debate on that, given the current
bylaws)
> * the community *must* be included, hence the rationale for 72 hours votes guideline
> * the board is ok with shorter vote windows, provided the release requirements are met
*and* community is included
> * the cordova community is willing to adapt to a process that satisfies the ASF guidelines,
but they would like to preserve their current style of 'cadence releases'
> 
> What I don't get is this:
> * say a community reaches a consensus to provide weekly releases (or daily, whatever
cadence)
> * say that they all know that the voting window is 12 hours (or 1 hour) starting *always*
on Wed as 12 am UTC.
> Then how can one justify a claim that a release was pushed by the 'people in the room'?
Cadence release is not unheard of. There are communities who release at a cadence of 4 years
and the voting window is 24 hours, the Tue after the first Mon in Nov [1].
> 
> * nobody could claim they are excluded, as the voting window is well known in advance
> * people (pmc or not) can decide in advance if they have bandwidth to participate in
testing the release and hence voting
> * people can volunteer/announce in advance if they can/will participate in testing the
release, which is what the RM does in any project
> * what goes in the release is dictated by the commits and the community has plenty of
ways to decide how to accomplish that
> * changes are incremental (i.e. whatever changes since last week), so the volume of work
and expectations are known and manageable
> * people can decide what the fate of failed releases is (redo, skip, etc).
> * a project could even go as far as allowing such 'short' vote cycles only via a unanimous
and time bound (say quarterly) vote in the PMC. This way a rogue group would only have a limited
time to push their interests. A disenfranchised PMC member could easily -1 short releases
for the next quarter. If the community cares about candence releases, it creates an incentive
for people to play nicely in the community. And there are other ways, smarter people already
suggested.
> 
> It is not my place to judge nor my desire to advocate for or against cadence releases.
I saw a bunch of excellent comments and proposals in these thread(s). Some volunteered to
experiment too. What is the problem with such an elusive solution, really? What is the perceived
risk?
> 
> My $0.02,
> Hadrian
> 
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_Day_%28United_States%29
> 
> 
>> On 02/13/2014 08:40 AM, Joseph Schaefer wrote:
>> That is a mischaracterization of the git story which was always about being able
to support multiple version control tools.  Yes people were concerned about the social side
but we wouldn't be Apache without that debate.
>> 
>> Same here.  All you are seeing is some natural skepticism about the claims being
made.  The door is open though to a well considered proposal that this exercise should help
refine.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Feb 13, 2014, at 7:58 AM, Benson Margulies <bimargulies@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> This conversation goes in a circle. I see two positions:
>>> 
>>> 1: Cadence releases are inevitably incompatible with Apache community values.
>>> 2: Cadence releases are not inevitably incompatible with Apache
>>> community values.
>>> 
>>> People who take the first position see this desire to use cadence as
>>> weakening of values and the brand. People who take the second position
>>> are frustrated.
>>> 
>>> Note the phrase, 'not inevitably'.  No one here is claiming, in the
>>> absence of an experiment, that this idea will inevitably lead to a
>>> perfectly healthy expression of Apache Community values.
>>> 
>>> This conversation reminds me of the early days of the git discussion.
>>> At that time, some folks were convinced that 'git === fork culture'.
>>> Since 'fork culture' is pretty clearly incompatible with Apache
>>> community values, it took a very long time for us to decide to perform
>>> an _experiment_ in git usage to see what would happen. OK, here we
>>> are, the git experiment has been deemed a success.
>>> 
>>> The following is utterly non-rhetorical. Something happened over the
>>> course of long discussion to move from 'git is evil, go away' to
>>> 'infra is willing to put effort into the infrastructure to support an
>>> experiment.' What was it, and is there any hope of following that
>>> path?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 12:02 AM, Phil Steitz <phil.steitz@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/12/14, 7:23 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Phil Steitz <phil.steitz@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I know this looks old-fashioned, even downright anachronistic to
>>>>>> "push-hourly-from-CI" people; but deciding *what* to release *as
a
>>>>>> community* is an important responsibility of ASF PMCs.  Putting
>>>>>> things on a rigid schedule basically skips this step, which, IMHO
is
>>>>>> a core part of our common culture and values.
>>>>> Should projects who wish to release on a regular schedule avoid Apache?
>>>> I agree with Joe that that is the wrong question to ask.  The right
>>>> question is what are the basic principles and values that
>>>> *communities* should buy into when deciding to join Apache.  I
>>>> proposed a couple of them above.  How releases happen, how policy
>>>> compliance is assured are secondary - the main thing communities
>>>> need to ask themselves when deciding to join the ASF is do they want
>>>> to do open, community-based development the way it is done here.  If
>>>> cutting releases on a predetermined schedule is somehow a
>>>> "requirement" for them, the first question to ask is "why" and if
>>>> there is a good answer to that question then the second question is
>>>> how do you do that in a way that is consistent our principles.
>>>> 
>>>> Phil
>>>>> Marvin Humphrey
>>>>> .
> 

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