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From Kirill Grouchnikov <kirillc...@yahoo.com>
Subject Re: [betwixt] Time and memory performance
Date Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:36:50 GMT
I'm soory, but i am really tired of this fruitless dispute.
This will be my last mail on below issues.

> > Take a look at
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/betwixt/dependencies
> and
> > note the following line: " The following is a list of
> > dependencies for this project. These dependencies are
> > required to compile and run the application". It may be
> not
> > your fault, but once i want to use betwixt, i'm stuck
> with
> > all these jars.
> 
> you're missing my point: resolver.jar and which.jar are
> not on that
> list. your summary is inaccurate. if you're going to take
> on the role of
> critique then it is important for your credibility that
> you make
> accurate comments in your summary.

Going from
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/betwixt/dependencies.html
to the link on xml commons and to its download section
http://xml.apache.org/mirrors.cgi . DL the
xml-commons-1.0.b2.tar.gz file. It contains three jars,
xml-apis.jar, resolver.jar and which.jar. Nowhere on
Betwixt site i've seen that i must take only xml-apis.jar.

> 
> if your basic complaint is that the size of the
> dependency tree is a
> negative: great! just say that. 

In "What are the factors that you use for "ease-of-use"
scoring?" section of FAQ you can see that distinct names of
jar files are part of rating. Number of jar files isn't.

> 
> you could make great improvement to the site by
> separating out the
> advocacy and linking to it. you dislike the xml-commons
> stuff and think
> stuff should be better named: fine. put it in a link and
> say some simple
> and true like 'has a big dependency tree'.

Once again, nothing to do with big dependency tree. Only
with the file names.


>  
> > > > #   the marshaler and the unmarshaler require
> > > specifying
> > > > root xml tag name
> > > 
> > > this is inaccurate. betwixt does not require specific
> > > root tags.
> > 
> > Taken from
> >
>
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/betwixt/guide/examples.html
> > :
> > 
> > // Write example bean as base element 'person'
> > beanWriter.write("person", new PersonBean("John Smith",
> > 21));
> > 
> > // Register beans so that betwixt knows what the xml is
> to
> > be converted to
> > // Since the element mapped to a PersonBean isn't
> called
> > the same, 
> > // need to register the path as well
> > beanReader.registerBeanClass("person",
> PersonBean.class);
> 
> this describes how the example works. 
> 
> do you intend to replace your inaccurate line with
> something more
> accurate like: poor example code (or something).

Once again, going to "What are the factors that you use for
"ease-of-use" scoring?" section of FAQ - "Documentation
(not Javadocs)". If you have poor documentation, you have
poor library. Period.

> > If you remove setAccessible, you get access exception,
> but
> > with them (silly me), it works like magic.
> 
> thanks for the information. i did ask you previously on
> the list but
> you've decided to play a little game, i see! how amusing
> :)

The little game that caused you to call me silly. That was
amusing for a couple of minutes, you must agree.

> 
> > > > I understand the reflection limitations, but the
> > > marshaler
> > > > goes half way (emits the attribute names, but not
> > > values,
> > > > and doesn't provide errors at all), while the
> > > unmarshaller
> > > > fails completely. It's either all go, or no go.
> > > 
> > > i disagree (and i'm in good company). start-from-java
> > > binders typically
> > > adopt a do-what-you-can approach. this is why
> > > start-from-java binders do
> > > not guarantee to be able to round trip. 
> > 
> > Except that in this case you just could go all the way
> > (silly me for noticing this).
> 
> no, silly me for thinking that you might actually be
> engaged in honest
> intelligent evaluation rather than submarine advocacy.

In its current state, Betwixt doesn't handle private static
inner classes correctly. This is a fact.

> > > IMO it would be much more illuminating if you listed
> the
> > > natural
> > > weaknesses of start-from-java binders (as you see
> them)
> > > separately and
> > > then just classify those which adopt this approach. 
> > 
> > How about a link from the main page at
> > https://bindmark.dev.java.net/ (to Ronald Bourret
> site)?
> 
> your site does not try to apply any classify to them,
> though. Ronald
> seems to take a little bit of an unusual way to do it but
> any
> classification would be better than none.

The project is a benchmark, not a classificator.

> 
> > > > #   if ByteArrayOutputStream is used for

> > > > #   default log level for BeanReader is INFO 
> > > 
> > > this is inaccurate. the default log level depends on
> your
> > > environment.
> > 
> > And my environment is pretty standard (it has commons
> > logging and JDK 5.0). 
> 
> then why not actually clarify the statement so it's true?

So, how the "default log level for BeanReader is INFO and
it produces messages on the examples (and real code) which
can be turned off only via configuration" is not clear?

> > JCK is not a major negative point as long as it
*doesn't*
> > produce results when everything is OK. If something's
up -
> > let me see it, if not - why should i care if some
function
> > had empty options popped from the stack? And that C24
use
> > of commons logging caused OutOfMemoryError since the
> > logging infrastructure never released the resources
(after
> > about 8000 marshalings).

> that's my point: you don't like JCL so why not say that?

I suppose that JaxMe uses JCL. However, since nothing
irrelevant is printed to the console, no mention of JCL is
there. Only once it gets in the way, it is mentioned.

> > > i'll be interested to see whether you decide to
correct
> > > the inaccuracies
> > > in your summary listed above. 
> 
> > Am i missing something to correct (silly me)?

> yes (silly you)

> the words you've chosen are inaccurate for two and could
be better
> chosen for a number of others. for someone who has a gift
> for picking
> out the documentation nits from other projects, it's a
shame you don't
> apply the same talent to your own...

> but silly me as well: i tool the hard option and wasted
my > time 
> engaging
> with your very stupid little games. 

As said earlier, this is my last post, so there will be no
need to respond to the above statements, not speaking about
changing the evaluation of Betwixt (until real changes are
made to address the issues).

Kirill


		
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