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From James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>
Subject Re: [ALL] Too much traffic on the "dev" ML
Date Sat, 17 Jan 2015 14:32:12 GMT
Well put!!

On Saturday, January 17, 2015, Gilles <gilles@harfang.homelinux.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 16:00:45 -0600, Ole Ersoy wrote:
>
>> I agree - we're hung up on a clown from the 90s.  It's so much
>> simpler click watch on github and get notifications.  Also
>> stackoverflow has a much broader Java community and having traffic go
>> through it could benefit this community.
>>
>
> I'm afraid that the main problem is not the tool.
>
> Step 1: an issue is felt as a problem by some people (from the
>         community or might-be contributors)
> Step 2: people (from the community) who don't feel the problem
>         try to demonstrate that there isn't a problem, thus
>         dismissing the (argumented) feeling of others
>
> This can destroy a community, or at least prevent its expansion.
> [And the "Commons" project's (with the word "project" as in "an
> Apache project") community certainly does not benefit from a
> pool of contributors commensurate with its purported goal and
> user base.]
>
> On the practical side, I'm not (yet) against having a single "dev"
> list: discussions about design are usually interesting even if
> applied to another project's codebase (with the the word "project"
> as in "programming project").
>
> But lately, the flood of automatic notifications (commits and CI)
> has drowned the useful discussions.
> For people who do not contribute to a project (i.e. neither
> providing code nor checking it), a commit diff is just noise
> because they lack context (not being aquainted with the codebase).
>
> The Commons community's implied answer to the stated fact is
> that people who feel that way should change their perception of
> reality, or go away.
>
> The respectful answer would be to solve the problem with the
> readily available technology of the 1990s: separate MLs for
> each project's _notifications_ (with the word "project" as in
> "programming project").
>
>
> Regards,
> Gilles
>
>  Ole
>>
>> On 01/16/2015 10:21 AM, Ben McCann wrote:
>>
>>> I find the whole I idea of a mailing list very 1990s. I'd much prefer
>>> something like Google Groups where I can set my notification preferences
>>> easily to send me updates only on certain threads such as threads I've
>>> started, which has a nice easily browsable and searchable web interface,
>>> and where I do not have to go through a signup process for each new
>>> group/list I want to post to. I feel many of the problems folks are
>>> talking
>>> about here are caused by using a frustrating technology. E.g. it was
>>> mentioned that if we split mailing lists that joining every list would be
>>> very painful. Perhaps that's because the process of joining just a single
>>> list is too difficult. Having to setup filters is also not very
>>> user-friendly. How do I make a filter that says only put threads on which
>>> I've participated in my inbox? There's probably a way, but it's not as
>>> obvious as clicking a single button. And even with filters I still don't
>>> want most of this garbage coming to my mail account anyway because it
>>> pollutes my search results when I'm looking for something I do care
>>> about.
>>> I signed up for the dev list just so that I could ask that someone
>>> reviews
>>> and commits my patch <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/BCEL-186>
>>> (which
>>> I still need help with), but I really have no interest in getting any
>>> commons mail beyond that. I've never participated in any of these other
>>> projects and flooding my inbox is just frustrating and isn't going to
>>> cause
>>> me to start. The web interface for mailing list archives is truly
>>> horrendous.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 8:16 AM, Gilles <gilles@harfang.homelinux.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 16:52:36 +0100, Torsten Curdt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Was it mentioned that anybody would be forbidden to subscribe to any
>>>>>
>>>>>> ML they see fit?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  You missed my point - but never mind.
>>>>>
>>>>>  What was it?
>>>>
>>>> Judging from your comments below, you completely missed mine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    That comparison is pretty flawed as those projects are not tiny
>>>>>
>>>>>> components.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not talking about the size of components, but the size of the
>>>>>> ML traffic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  So just because a component/project has a lot of ML traffic you
want
>>>>> to make it TLP?
>>>>>
>>>>>  I never said that.
>>>> I'm only complaining about ML traffic.
>>>>
>>>>   Usually it should be about having enough active committers and users.
>>>>
>>>>> While this might contribute to ML traffic, it doesn't necessarily
>>>>> mean the same.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   I've never a great fan of umbrellas but the components are so small
-
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see another option. The thought of components to go TLP feels
>>>>>>> just plain silly to me. Hence it would be great to work together
as a
>>>>>>> community that takes care of those components.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The idea of "Commons Math" being a component is silly, but we can
>>>>>> accept
>>>>>> silly things that result from history (and consider the practical
>>>>>> advantages, as I noted elsewhere).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Well, by the current definition it's not an Apache project. Call
it
>>>>> sub-project if you like - I don't care.
>>>>>
>>>>>  What I'm calling "project" is a _programming_ project; that's the word
>>>> I'm used to; do you have another one?
>>>> Every component is a separate programming project, it's a simple fact.
>>>>
>>>>   At some stage we decided to call it component. After all I see it as
>>>>
>>>>> a library.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think it's more and needs to be raised to the level to full
>>>>> blown project like hadoop or httpd?
>>>>> Not sure it Math holds that comparison but you are welcome to convince
>>>>> us.
>>>>>
>>>>>  I think that this has nothing to do with this thread.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    If it depends on the name of the list, I guess that the "sense of
>>>>>
>>>>>> community" is not very developed...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  And that's what I call an oversimplification.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  You brought that up (one community == one list). Or another missed
>>>> point?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gilles
>>>>
>>>
>
>
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