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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 12:21:28 -0400
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Subject: Re: Creating CSVFormats (again :)
From: Gary Gregory <garydgregory@gmail.com>
To: Commons Developers List <dev@commons.apache.org>
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On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Benedikt Ritter <britter@apache.org> wrote:

> 2013/5/23 Gary Gregory <garydgregory@gmail.com>
>
> > On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 3:31 AM, Benedikt Ritter <britter@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > 2013/5/21 Gary Gregory <garydgregory@gmail.com>
> > >
> > > > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Benedikt Ritter <britter@apache.or=
g
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > 2013/5/21 Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > > Le 21/05/2013 17:47, Benedikt Ritter a =C3=A9crit :
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well that still doesn't tell us, what your definition of a
> "real"
> > > > > builder
> > > > > > > is :-) The latest trunk contains a builder implementation wit=
h
> a
> > > > fluent
> > > > > > > API. It has been criticized for being to verbose when creatin=
g
> > new
> > > > > > formats
> > > > > > > from existing ones. This is why we came up with this new
> > proposal,
> > > > that
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > less verbose but requires static imports.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What about simply going back to the previous design (fluent API
> > > without
> > > > > > builder) ? The only drawback was the need to validate the forma=
t
> > > > > > explicitly. That is the best compromise IMHO.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Emmanuel,
> > > > >
> > > > > I think we have discussed this a lot (maybe to much). You certain=
ly
> > > know
> > > > my
> > > > > arguments against the old solution and I still think they are
> valid.
> > > > Also,
> > > > > I understand your arguments and think they are equally valid.
> > > > > I believe we have tried a lot to finally reach consensus about th=
is
> > > > issue.
> > > > > We have tried several solutions and to me it seems, that consensu=
s
> > can
> > > > > simply not be reached (an argument that can't be settled in 5
> minutes
> > > > can't
> > > > > be settled with arguments at all).
> > > > >
> > > > > Having this said, I'm willing to give my +0 for going back for th=
e
> > old
> > > > impl
> > > > > if the others (by this I specially me Gary and sebb) also agree.
> > > > > I believe that this issue has blocked us for such a long time fro=
m
> > > > pushing
> > > > > csv forward, that it is time to overcome personal preferences and
> > just
> > > > > chose one solution or the other.
> > > > >
> > > > > So if you can at least convince Gary and sebb, let's do it and th=
en
> > go
> > > > on.
> > > > > I want to see csv see the light of day :-)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nice message Benedikt.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Thanks :)
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > At the end of the day, here is what I am looking for: Don't force m=
e
> to
> > > use
> > > > a style of API to use the product. If I want to use fat constructor=
s
> > that
> > > > may be hard to read, let me. If I want to use a fluent API, provide
> it
> > > and
> > > > let people who like that style use it. At a lower level, do make
> things
> > > > immutable where they make sense. If the fluent API and/or the
> > > immutability
> > > > of some objects has the side effect or creating a lot of garbage,
> then
> > > that
> > > > is the cost of using that feature, which is why I do not want to
> force
> > > > people to use it. Let there be light ;)
> > > >
> > >
> > > So this is your +1 for the old API + public ctor?
> > >
> >
> > I'm not sure which is which anymore and I do not want to take the time
> > today to dive back in this one. But it does feel we are getting close..=
.
> to
> > something ;)
> >
>
>
> Sorry, for the late follow up...
> What we are talking about is probably something like r1399051 [1] but wit=
h
> a public ctor.
>
> WDYT?
>

That should be OK. Turning the default ctor into a public one should
satisfy both audiences: the fluent-obsessed and the I-know-what-I'm-doing.

Gary


>
> Benedikt
>
> [1]
>
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/commons/proper/csv/trunk/src/main/java/org/a=
pache/commons/csv/CSVFormat.java?revision=3D1399051&view=3Dmarkup
>
>
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > >
> > > I'm excited to hear sebb's opinion :)
> > >
> > > Benedikt
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Gary
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Benedikt
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Emmanuel Bourg
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > http://people.apache.org/~britter/
> > > > > http://www.systemoutprintln.de/
> > > > > http://twitter.com/BenediktRitter
> > > > > http://github.com/britter
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > E-Mail: garydgregory@gmail.com | ggregory@apache.org
> > > > Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition<
> > > > http://www.manning.com/bauer3/>
> > > > JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/>
> > > > Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/>
> > > > Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
> > > > Home: http://garygregory.com/
> > > > Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://people.apache.org/~britter/
> > > http://www.systemoutprintln.de/
> > > http://twitter.com/BenediktRitter
> > > http://github.com/britter
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > E-Mail: garydgregory@gmail.com | ggregory@apache.org
> > Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition<
> > http://www.manning.com/bauer3/>
> > JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/>
> > Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/>
> > Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
> > Home: http://garygregory.com/
> > Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://people.apache.org/~britter/
> http://www.systemoutprintln.de/
> http://twitter.com/BenediktRitter
> http://github.com/britter
>


--=20
E-Mail: garydgregory@gmail.com | ggregory@apache.org
Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition<http://www.manning.com/baue=
r3/>
JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/>
Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/>
Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
Home: http://garygregory.com/
Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory

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