commons-dev mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From Gilles Sadowski <>
Subject Re: [math] UnexpectedNegativeIntegerException
Date Tue, 28 Aug 2012 22:51:25 GMT
Hi Luc.

First off, I'd like to make it quite clear that _I_ was fine (and still am)
about a singly rooted hierarchy of exceptions for CM.

I nevertheless answer to your reply because we differ on the rationale for
such a change, or more exactly, we differ on how exceptions are to be
integrated in the design of CM so as to make it simple both for the CM
developers and for the CM users.
[In this respect, my position is guided by simplicity and consistency. As
far as exceptions are concerned, the previous state of affairs was neither.]

> > 
> >>> [...]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Applications that call CM would be safe (apart from bugs raising
> >>>>> with a unique catch clause intercepting "MathRuntimeException".
> >>>> I am happy (and surprised) to read that.
> >>>> I would really much like to go back to a single root exception
> >>>> hierarchy. This both helps top level application as depending on context
> >>>> they can either pinpoint the exception they want to catch or they can
> >>>> have a grab all strategy. It is their choice.
> >>>
> >>> I like throwing (and catching) standard exceptions instead of
> >>> inventing variants of them, which is why I favored having MathIAE
> >>> inherit from IAE, etc.  I would have preferred to just throw IAE
> >>> directly, but we could not agree on how to do that and preserve
> >>> localization, so we ended up with the current setup where we have
> >>> custom variants, but they inherit from the standard exceptions.  I
> >>> am curious, Luc, about exactly what kinds of use cases will really
> >>> be easier / better for users if we go back to a single-rooted
> >>> hierarchy.  I get that instead of "catch Exception" or "catch
> >>> RuntimeException" you can at the top level "catch MathRTE" and that
> >>> will catch only the exceptions that come (at least originally) from
> >>> the [math] code.
> >>
> >> Yes, but this is only one aspect.
> >>
> >>> Can you help me understand via an example how that
> >>> is a big benefit that is worth more than being able to "catch IAE"
> >>> or "catch IOE" directly?
> >>
> >> One of the problems I encounter occurs when building large applications
> >> with several components layers. At an intermediate level, say just above
> >> [math], developers know what they are calling and they may decide to
> >> catch an exception they know about, if they are able to identify it is
> >> thrown (which is not always obvious). They may also decide the exception
> >> cannot be handled at their level and simply let it propagate upward. As
> >> you go upward in the software layers, with different development teams,
> >> you lose this knowledge and people don't even understand anything about
> >> mathematics. They can however still catch some large scope exceptions,
> >> one type per component (say a MathRuntimeException, and a MylibException
> >> if they know these two sub-components are used). They won't do anything
> >> with the exception but nicely display them in the graphical user
> >> interface and stop the application. This works well as long as there is
> >> one single root per library, but it does not scale with 40 different
> >> exceptions per libraries.
> > 
> > Nice display of exceptions (i.e. other than just displaying the text
> > message formatted by CM) is one usage I had been attempting to explain all
> > along (cf. mail archive) and for which specific exceptions are better suited
> > (more flexible, through the existence of accessors) than base types (like
> > the java standard exceptions): For example, if you've caught an
> > "OutOfRangeException", you know that you can get the lower and upper bounds
> > without any ugly gymnastics like parsing the exception message or pattern.
> You missed the point I tried to make. When I wrote nice display, I did
> not intend to reformat the exception or provide fine tune analysis of
> it, I meant rather the opposite. Get the message as is and put it in the
> display medium chosen by the upper level application (logbook,
> inter-process message, popup window, standard output print, smoke
> signals, telepathic connection to the user, you name it). For this, you
> don't want a fine tuned access but rather a broad scope access.

OK, I missed that point. But you can do that with specific types all the
Plus someone, some day, might want to create a "nice display", and he can
do that too. :-)

> > 
> >>
> >> Another problem is maintenance. Even if you consider the intermediate
> >> developer did his work really accurately and managed to identify all
> >> exceptions thrown by the methods he calls in one version of Apache
> >> Commons Math. When we change an error detection and decide that a method
> >> that did throw only MaxCountExceededException a method should throw
> >> NumberIsToolLargeException instead (or in addition to the existing one),
> >> then the calling code would still compile, but the new exception would
> >> now go all the way upward. The two exceptions have no common ancestor
> >> that can be catched, except Exception itself. With a single rooted
> >> hierarchy, users can use some defensive programming: they can catch the
> >> common root and be safe when we change some internal details.
> >>
> >> A single root would also bring two things I find useful.
> >>
> >> The first useful thing is that the ExceptionContextProvider could be
> >> implemented at the root level, so we could retrieve this context (in
> >> fact, I sometime needs even to retrive the pattern and the arguments
> >> from the context, and we also miss getters for that, but they are easy
> >> to add).
> > 
> > I'd be wary of giving access to patterns as I consider those as internal
> > details (cf. above for, IMHO, the correct way to access the arguments passed
> > to exceptions). Could you please give a concrete example where you need to
> > access the pattern that serves to create the message string?
> I encountered this need in two different cases. The first one was to
> identify very precisely an error type, even with finer granularity than
> exception type. Parsing the error message to recognize the exception is
> evil, checking the enumerate used in the pattern is less evil. The
> second case was when I needed to create a more elaborate message by
> combining some information provided by the caller, and some information
> extracted from the exception. Here again, parsing is evil but getting
> the parameters is fine.

Maybe you missed my point (same as above), as it applies here too: You can
get the parameters through the accessors (of the specific exception types).
We created the "context" so that additional parameters can be set and
retrieved ("key/value" pairs). I still do not understand why one should
resort to extract something from the pattern.
[The pattern is unfortunately "public" whereas it should be an
"implementation detail".]

> > 
> >> It is not possible to catch ExceptionContextProvider because it
> >> is not a throwable (Throwable is a class, not an interface, so we
> >> inherit the Throwable nature from the top level class, not as
> >> implementing the ExceptionContextProvider interface.
> > 
> > This should be sowewhat alleviated in Java 7, since it is possible to catch
> > many exceptions in the same clause. Of course, it doesn't help if
> > applications are stuck to Java 5... :-}
> You should be happy we do not support Java 1.3 anymore.

Yes. Thank you! ;-)
[I'm not going to start another inner thread...]

> > 
> >>
> >> The second useful thing is for [math] development itself. With a single
> >> root, we can temporarily change its parent class from RuntimeException
> >> to Exception, then fix all missing throws declaration and javadoc, then
> >> put the parent class back before committing. This would help having more
> >> up to date declarations. For now, I am sure we have missed a lot of our
> >> own exceptions and let them propagate upward without anybody knowing it.
> >> As a test, I have just changed the parent for
> >> MathIllegalArgumentException to Exception. I got 1384 compilation
> >> errors. Just going to the first one (a constructor of
> >> BaseAbstractUnivariateIntegrator), I saw we did not advertise the fact
> >> it may throw NumberIsTooSmallException and NotStrictlyPositiveException,
> >> neither in a throws declaration nor in the javadoc. I did not look at
> >> the 1383 other errors...
> > 
> > I'm -1 to consider this as something to fix. Quite the opposite: in
> > "standard" Java code, runtime exceptions must not appear in throws clauses
> > (cf. mail archive for rationale and references).
> > I understood that this switch to checked exceptions is part of your work
> > cycle, but it has nothing to do with the library being well implemented.
> > 
> > I do agree that the Javadoc is supposed to document all thrown exceptions.
> The process I explained simplifies this.

My view is that the documentation being one important component of a
contribution to CM, a patch should not be committed if it lacks in this
respect. Yes, this is a rule that might potentially turn away contributors,
but it's worth the time you or I would have to spend afterwards in order to
clean up the mess.
When we enforce good quality contributions, you don't have to resort to this
"switch" trick (which cannot always work because checked and unchecked
exceptions are not interchangeable, _conceptually_).

> > 
> > And I certainly do agree that,
> >  1. if applications must catch all exceptions and
> >  2. they must display them differently according to the component that threw
> >     them,
> > then having a singly rooted hierarchy is nicer to the application developer.
> > 
> > [If only the first condition holds, I don't see what's the problem with
> > putting the whole code inside a "try" block and catch "Exception".]
> Intermediate level applications are not allowed to catch Exception. They
> too use checkstyle and findbugs, and catching exception is bad for them too.

OK, that's a fair argument. I just wanted to play the devil's advocate, for
multiple hierarchies!

> > 
> > As during the dicussions that followed my proposal to get rid of checked
> > exceptions, there seems to still be a confusion with the purpose of either
> > category (checked vs unchecked): a runtime exception is _not_ some kind of
> > control structure, like "I cannot perform the operation; please try again
> > later"; rather it is informing the caller of a permanent failure: "I will
> > never be able to perform the operation; please don't try again".
> > [Checked exceptions were meant for the former: e.g. when trying to write to
> > a file, you get a "Disk is full" error and the caller can act (e.g. deleting
> > some files) so that a subsequent call can succeed. I contend that CM does
> > not have any such procedures, nor should be trying to handle "retry"
> > scenarios.]
> It's not as simple as this. When we detect a problem at [math] level, we
> cannot say the problem is something that cannot be fixed, we don't even
> know what the user tried to do.
> One example I often use is launch window computation for rockets. One
> way to compute them is brute force simulation: you simply try all launch
> times and for each one you perform the simulation of the early orbits
> phase. If at any time something breaks (a polynomial that never crosses
> zero, an optimizer that fails to converge, a square root from a negative
> number ...), you simply know you have exceeded the launch window
> boundary and you try another date to identify the limit. The
> computations are far too complex to be able to say before hand using
> preconditions: this launch time will not work (it is an example of the
> Turing halting problem). Also the fact a computation totally fails in
> this context is not an indication something is wrong in what the user
> asked for, the user was especially looking for such failures! This
> example is rather specific, I admit it, but the point is that at low
> level, you cannot decide this is a problem that should stop the
> application so I can trigger a runtime exception and this other case is
> a problem the user can handle and I should trigger a regular exception.

Thanks for this illustrative example.
But it does not contradict the spirit of what I wrote. It's "clear" that
making sure that such a complex task will not fail is at least as complex as
the task itself. However, the caller knows that, and, as you explained, even
expects that failures will happen. Hence, it wraps whatever calls are
expected to fail within a "try"-block, catch the exception and decides what
to do: abort the application, or go to the next set of parameters. What I
meant is that the policy is the caller's sole responsibility; there is
nothing CM can do beyond saying "that call did not succeed". In the language
of your example: There is no way that CM would be able to say "try another
launch time". Thus even if from the user's viewpoint, there is nothing wrong
with getting an exception, from the CM developer's viewpoint, the code was
nevertheless called inappropriately.

> > 
> > To be hopefully clear (referring to your remark about
> > "MathIllegalArgumentException"): Wrong arguments are the cause of the
> > failure and it is the role of the _caller_ to prevent this from happening.
> It's not always possible and it was proved by Turing in 1936. It is an
> undecidable problem.

I think that this is a slight overstatement. That there is no algorithm that
can decide whether an _arbitrary_ program will halt or not on an _arbitrary_
input does not imply that it's impossible to predict what a _specific_
program will do on a _specific_ input. I'm sure that you're a very good
programmer and that your application will definitely decide whether the
launch time is within the limits or not. :-)


> best regards,
> Luc
> > The fact that CM checks for the validity of the preconditions is for
> > robustness: It is a last resort check in order to fail early, with a
> > meaningful report.
> > And indeed, when all goes fine (as it does in most cases), the CM checks are
> > _redundant_; but we (as application developers) are willing to pay this
> > price for the added security, in those cases that are our own programming
> > _bugs_.
> > 
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Gilles
> > 
> >>
> >>> What I am missing is how knowing that an
> >>> aspecific RTE came from within [math] makes a difference.  I am
> >>> skeptical about ever depending on that kind of conclusion because
> >>> dependencies may bring [math] code in at multiple levels.  Also, is
> >>> there an implied assumption in your ideal setup that *no* exceptions
> >>> propagate to [math] clients other than MRTE (i.e. we catch and wrap
> >>> everything)?
> >>
> >> No, I don't make this assumption. I consider that at upper levels, code
> >> can receive exception from all layers underneath ([math] at the very
> >> bottom, but also other layers in between). With two or three layers, you
> >> can still handle a few library-wide exceptions (see my example with
> >> MathRuntimeException, and MylibException above). However, if at one
> >> level the development rules state that all exception must be caught and
> >> wrapped (this happens in some critical systems contexts), then a single
> >> root hierarchy helps a lot.
> >>
> >> My point is that with a single root, we can get the best of two worlds:
> >> large scope catches and pinpointed catches. The choice remains open for
> >> users. With a multi-rooted hierarchy, we force users to duplicate the
> >> same work for all exceptions we may throw, and we also force them to
> >> recheck everything when we publish a new version, even despite we
> >> ourselves fail to document these exceptions accurately.
> >>
> >> best regards,
> >> Luc
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Phil
> >>>>
> >>>> For sure, this is something that can be done only for a major release.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Client apps cannot do more with checked exceptions, and
can be made as
> >>>>>>> "safe" by wrapping calls in try-blocks.
> >>>>>>> On the other hand, client source code is much cleaner without
> >>>>>>> "throws" clauses or wrapping of checked expections at all
> >>>>>>> Some Java experts go as far as saying that checked exceptions
were a
> >>>>>>> language design mistake (never repeated in languages invented
> >>>>>>> recently).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There is a reason that NaNs exist.  It is much cheaper
to return a
> >>>>>>>> NaN than to raise (and force the client to handle) an
> >>>>>>>> This is not precise and probably can't be made so, but
I have always
> >>>>>>>> looked at things more or less like this:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 0) IAE (which I see no need to specialize as elaborately
as we have
> >>>>>>>> done in [math]) is for clear violation of the documented
> >>>>>>>> contract.  The actual parameters "don't make sense"
in the context
> >>>>>>>> of the API.
> >>>>>>> The "elaboration" is actually very basic (but that's a matter
of taste), but
> >>>>>>> it was primarily promoted (by me) in order to hide (as much
as possible) the
> >>>>>>> ugliness (another matter of taste) of the "LocalizedFormats"
enum, and its
> >>>>>>> inconsequent use (duplication). [Cf. discussions in the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1) NaN can be returned as the result of a computation
which, when
> >>>>>>>> started with legitimate arguments, does not result in
> >>>>>>>> representable value.
> >>>>>>> According to this description, S├ębastien's case _must_
be handled by an
> >>>>>>> exception: the argument is _not_ legtimate.
> >>>>>>> The usage of NaN I was referring to is to let a computation
proceed ("follow
> >>>>>>> an unexceptional path") in the hope that the final result
might still be
> >>>>>>> meaningful.
> >>>>>>> If the NaN persists, not checking for it and signalling
the problem (i.e.
> >>>>>>> raise an exception) is a bug. This is to avoid that (and
be robust) that we
> >>>>>>> do extensive precondition checks in CM. But this has the
> >>>>>>> drawback that the use of NaN as suggested is much less likely
to be feasible
> >>>>>>> when calling CM code. Once realizing that, it becomes much
less obvious that
> >>>>>>> there is _any_ advantage of letting NaNs propagate...
> >>>>>>> [Anyone has an example of NaN usage? Please let me know.]
> >>>>>> I use NaN a lot as an indicator that a variable has not been
> >>>>>> initialized yet. This occurs for example in iterative algorithms,
> >>>>>> some result is computed deep inside some loop and we don't know
when the
> >>>>>> loop will end. Then I write something along these lines:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   while (Double.isNaN(result)) {
> >>>>>>      // do something that hopefully will change result to non-NaN
> >>>>>>   }
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   // now I know result has been computed
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Another use is to initialize some fields in class to values
I know are
> >>>>>> not meaningful. I can then us NaN as a marker to do lazy evaluation
> >>>>>> values that takes time to compute and should be computed only
when both
> >>>>>> really needed and when everything required for their computation
> >>>>>> available.
> >>>>> I should have said "[...] example of NaN usage, beyond singling
> >>>>> unitialized data [...]". The above makes use of NaN as "invalid"
because it
> >>>>> is not initialized (yet).
> >>>> Yes.
> >>>>
> >>>>> I'd assume that if "result" stays NaN after the allowed number of
> >>>>> iterations, you raise an exception, i.e. you don't propagate NaN
as the
> >>>>> output of a computation that cannot provide a useful result. However,
> >>>>> (propagating NaN) is the behaviour of "srqt(-1)", for example.
> >>>>> Thus, if you raise an exception, your computation does not behave
in the
> >>>>> same way as the function "sqrt".
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Another use is simply to detect some special cases in computations
> >>>>>> sqrt(-1) or 0/0). I do the computation first and check the NaN
> >>>>>> afterwards. See for example the detection of NaNs in the linear
> >>>>>> combinations in MathArrays or in the nth order Brent solver.
> >>>>> OK, this is a good example, in line with the intended usage of NaN
(as it
> >>>>> avoids inserting control structures in the computation).
> >>>> Yes. One of the main use case for this is when a computation involves
> >>>> loop and failure is very rare. So we avoid costly numerous if statements
> >>>> within the loop and do a single check. In the few cases this single
> >>>> check fails, we go to a diffrent branch to handle the failure. This
> >>>> exactly what is done in linear combination.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Another use of NaNs occurs when integrating various code components
> >>>>>> different origins in a single application. Data is forwarded
between the
> >>>>>> various components in all directions. Components never share
the same
> >>>>>> exceptions mechanisms. Components either process NaNs specially
> >>>>>> is good) or they let the processor propagate them (it is what
the IEEE
> >>>>>> standard mandates) and at the end you can detect it reliably
> >>>>>> application level.
> >>>>> I'm not sure I understand this. Is it good or bad that a component
lets NaNs
> >>>>> propagate? Are there situations when it's good and others where
it's bad?
> >>>> In the cases I encountered, it is always good to have NaNs propagated.
> >>>> component that is not an application by itself but only a part (low
> >>>> intermediate level) often cannot decide at its level how to handle NaNs
> >>>> except in rare cases. So it propagates them upward. The previous example
> >>>> (linear combination in [math]) is of course a counter-example: we are
> >>>> low level, we know how to handle the NaN for this operation, so we
> >>>> detect it and fix it.
> >>>>
> >>>>> That's why I was asking (cf. quote from previous post below) what
are the
> >>>>> criteria, so that contributors know how to write code when the feature
> >>>>> in one or the other category.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The problem is that contracts can often be written so
that instances
> >>>>>>>> of 1) are turned into instances of 0).  Gamma(-) is
a great
> >>>>>>>> example.  The singularities at negative integers could
be viewed as
> >>>>>>>> making negative integer arguments "illegal" or "nonsense"
from the
> >>>>>>>> API standpoint,
> >>>>>>> They are just nonsense (not just from an API standpoint).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> or legitimate arguments for which no well-defined,
> >>>>>>>> representable value can be returned.  Personally, I
would prefer to
> >>>>>>>> get NaN back from this function and just point out the
existence of
> >>>>>>>> the singularities in the javadoc.
> >>>>>>> This is consistent with how basic math functions behave,
but not with the
> >>>>>>> general rule/convention of most of CM code.
> >>>>>>> It may be fine that we have several ways to deal with exceptional
> >>>>>>> conditions, but it might be nice, as with formatting, to
have rules so that
> >>>>>>> we know how to write contributions.
> >>>>>> Too many rules are not a solution, especially when there are
no tools to
> >>>>>> help enforce these rules are obeyed. Relying only on the fact
> >>>>>> proof-reading will enforce them is wishful thinking.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> What is "too many"? ["How long should a person's legs be?" ;-)]
> >>>>> I don't agree with the "wishful thinking" statement; a "diff" could
> >>>>> show a lot a manual corrections to the code and comment formatting.
> >>>>> in the sources which I touched at some point...]
> >>>> I'm not sure I understand your point. Mine is that rules that are not
> >>>> backed by automated tools are a pain to enforce, and hence are not
> >>>> fulfilled most of the time, except at a tremendous human resource cost.
> >>>> In fact, even rules which can be associated with tools are broken during
> >>>> development for some time. We do not use
> >>>> checkstyle/CLIRR/findbugs/PMD/RAT for all commits for example, but do
> >>>> fix pass from time to time.
> >>>>
> >>>>> There are other areas where there is only human control, namely
the "svn
> >>>>> log" messages where (no less picky) rules are enforced just because
> >>>>> helps _humans_ in their change overview task.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As pointed out by Jared, it's not a big problem to comply with rules
> >>>>> you know them.
> >>>> I fully agree with that, but I also think Phil is right when he says
> >>>> many rules may discourage potential contributors. I remember a link
> >>>> sent to us months ago about to a presentation by Michael Meeks about
> >>>> interacting with new developers
> >>>> <>.
> >>>> Slides numers 3 an 4 are a fabulous example. I think we are lucky Jared
> >>>> has this state of mind and accepts picky rules easily. I'm not sure
> >>>> an open mind is widespread among potential contributors.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Keeping source code tidy is quite helpful, and potential contributors
> >>>>> be happy that they can read any CM source files and immediately
> >>>>> that they are part of the same library...
> >>>> Yes, of course. But the entry barrier should not be too high.
> >>>>
> >>>> best regards,
> >>>> Luc
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>> Gilles
> >>>>>

To unsubscribe, e-mail:
For additional commands, e-mail:

View raw message