Cloud.io,
> back to James' first email: any type could be immediately used as
> edge/vertex without wrappers, while specific data related to the domain of
> graphs (weights, labels) would be handled separately. I actually think this
> is useful: back to my days of "DIY Java graphs" I implemented something
> similar to what we have now, just to think every time: "why should I wrap my
> objects with these markers? I already know my Router is a Vertex in the
> graph..."
I already showed be open on dropping elements, do I have to copy my
first reply as well so we start again? :)
OK, I started collecting various thoughts and trying to converge them
to a common path: Vertex is something we can safety drop because we
know its nature at priori, markers are unnecessary.This is fine.
>
> Here's the way I see it. A Graph<V,E> implementing HasWeightedEdges would
> have something like this inside:
>
> Map<E, W> edgeWeights = new HashMap<E, W>();
>
> [... populate map, other methods, etc ...]
>
> // implementing HasWeightedEdges#getEdgeWeight
> public W getEdgeWeight(E edge)
> {
> [... check null etc...]
> return edgeWeights.get(edge);
>
> }
>
what is the sense, at that point, on keeping the Edge?!! It would be
more than enough to know which is the Head and which is the Tail in
the Edge to get the W!
> then let's find a better name, but why *OrderedMonoid?
maybe because they implement OrderedMonoid? :)
> Assume we replace the
> whole set of current interfaces (see my comment to the next paragraph below)
> with just Addition and Comparable (the latter already exists of course).
> There is no need to create another interface to merge the two
> (ComparableAddition? OrderedAddition?). Then we have:
>
how much would Addition and Multiplication interface differ each other?
> public class DoubleWeightOperations
> implements Addition, Comparator
> {
> [...]
> }
>
> I would not rename the class to DoubleWeightAddition or even
> DoubleWeightComparableAddition. What if later we need to e.g. add a function
> that normalizes weights by some factor, or returns the reciprocal of a
> weight, etc? With the above code it would suffice to add new interfaces:
>
> public class DoubleWeightOperations
> implements Addition, Comparator, Normalization, Reciprocal
> {
> [...]
>
> }
>
>
that would be fine, what is not clear is that Monoids expose the same
interface, so *Operations class implementation canot declare same
method multiple times
>
> That is fine for me. I simply followed pure theory while implementing that
> and used all possible granularity.
questionable, that is why we are still speaking about it
> Now looking at our implementations I
> think it is save enough to even merge Zero, Semigroup and Monoid (so that's
> one step further than your example below) and call the result Addition so
> that its role is clear to everybody. Does that sound good? :)
Sounds more than good, it is what I already proposed messages ago:
> Zero, name of an element, contains `zero` method to get the zero (it
> is still confusing to me), Monoid extends Zero and Semigroup  given
> the use inside graph math, Zero#zero and Semigroup#append can be moved
> directly to Monoid and rename it as WeightOperation
despite the rename, I still like the Monoid :P
enough talk IMHO, time to code and make concrete proposals
best,
Simo
http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
http://simonetripodi.livejournal.com/
http://twitter.com/simonetripodi
http://www.99soft.org/
On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Claudio Squarcella
<squarcel@dia.uniroma3.it> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>> Apologize but I still don't understand what the benefit is on storing
>> nodes/arcs data in the Graph data structure
>
>
> back to James' first email: any type could be immediately used as
> edge/vertex without wrappers, while specific data related to the domain of
> graphs (weights, labels) would be handled separately. I actually think this
> is useful: back to my days of "DIY Java graphs" I implemented something
> similar to what we have now, just to think every time: "why should I wrap my
> objects with these markers? I already know my Router is a Vertex in the
> graph..."
>
>
>>  sounds to me like a
>> Collection<Integer> where, to know the int value of its elements, have
>> to query the data structure, i.e.
>>
>> Collection<Integer> integerCollection = ...;
>> for ( Integer ptr : integerCollection )
>> {
>> int value = integerCollection.getInt( ptr );
>> }
>>
>> It is weird to me even reading it.
>>
>> When I started modeling Graph, I had collections in mind  above all
>> to simplify its adoption  I would be more than pleased to drop
>> Weighted* version of graphs and come back to the previous situation,
>> but with the annoying type inference issue fixed.
>
>
> Here's the way I see it. A Graph<V,E> implementing HasWeightedEdges would
> have something like this inside:
>
> Map<E, W> edgeWeights = new HashMap<E, W>();
>
> [... populate map, other methods, etc ...]
>
> // implementing HasWeightedEdges#getEdgeWeight
> public W getEdgeWeight(E edge)
> {
> [... check null etc...]
> return edgeWeights.get(edge);
>
> }
>
>>> no, trying to be clearer: you propose to rename Monoid into
>>> WeightOperation,
>>> which is like renaming Addition into Operation. Or alternatively to call
>>> the
>>> current *WeightBaseOperations something like *WeightMonoid. In both cases
>>> I
>>> disagree because I would prefer to keep a clear distinction between
>>> single
>>> welldefined properties/operations (like Addition or Comparator) and the
>>> comprehensive implementation (e.g. DoubleWeightBaseOperations) that
>>> implements all the operations it can implement with Doubles.
>>
>> OK, concept is clear, I still don't agree on the nomenclature, anyway.
>> Actually *WeightBaseOperations describe
>> *WeightAdditionalOrderedMonoid, so *BaseOperations doesn't sound self
>> explaining.
>
>
> then let's find a better name, but why *OrderedMonoid? Assume we replace the
> whole set of current interfaces (see my comment to the next paragraph below)
> with just Addition and Comparable (the latter already exists of course).
> There is no need to create another interface to merge the two
> (ComparableAddition? OrderedAddition?). Then we have:
>
> public class DoubleWeightOperations
> implements Addition, Comparator
> {
> [...]
> }
>
> I would not rename the class to DoubleWeightAddition or even
> DoubleWeightComparableAddition. What if later we need to e.g. add a function
> that normalizes weights by some factor, or returns the reciprocal of a
> weight, etc? With the above code it would suffice to add new interfaces:
>
> public class DoubleWeightOperations
> implements Addition, Comparator, Normalization, Reciprocal
> {
> [...]
>
> }
>
>
>>
>> Moreover, The Zero interface is the *additional* monoid identity
>> element, if someone has to implement the Multiplication Monoid I
>> wouldn't expect he implements the One interface wich declares O one()
>> method.
>> This is why IMHO in the current algebra model, Zero has to be dropped
>> and has to be modified in:
>
>
> That is fine for me. I simply followed pure theory while implementing that
> and used all possible granularity. Now looking at our implementations I
> think it is save enough to even merge Zero, Semigroup and Monoid (so that's
> one step further than your example below) and call the result Addition so
> that its role is clear to everybody. Does that sound good? :)
>
> Claudio
>
>
>>
>> /**
>> * semigroup is an algebraic structure consisting of a set together
>> with an associative binary operation.
>> */
>> interface Semigroup<E>
>> {
>>
>> E append( E s1, E s2 );
>>
>> }
>>
>> /**
>> * A {@link Monoid} is a {@link Semigroup} with an identity value.
>> */
>> public interface Monoid<E>
>> extends Semigroup<M>
>> {
>>
>> E identity();
>>
>> E inverse( E element );
>>
>> }
>>
>> that would continue working for every Monoid specialization. Or not?
>> thoughts?
>> Thanks and best,
>> Simo
>>
>> http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
>> http://simonetripodi.livejournal.com/
>> http://twitter.com/simonetripodi
>> http://www.99soft.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Claudio Squarcella
>> <squarcel@dia.uniroma3.it> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>> On 03/03/2012 02:21, Simone Tripodi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> first of all: yes, I will play with this stuff as soon as I find the
>>>>> time
>>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> this is scaring... go Orb.io, go! :)
>>>>
>>>>> constant), but still there is one more step of indirection. So we would
>>>>> need
>>>>> to test and compare performances, hopefully with acceptable results.
>>>>
>>>> sounds it would be better if you implement that stuff in a branch to
>>>> keep both implementations, IMHO
>>>
>>>
>>> sure :)
>>>
>>>
>>>>> * with the current approach: one interface for edgeweighted graphs
>>>>> (EdgeWeightedGraph, renaming the current WeightedGraph?), one for
>>>>> vertexweighted graphs (VertexWeightedGraph) and maybe even one for
>>>>> weights on both edges and vertices (EdgeAndVertexWeightedGraph?) 
>>>>> not to talk about their counterparts with labels, etc;
>>>>> * with the proposed approach: a Graph would implement
>>>>> HasWeightsOnEdges and/or HasWeightsOnVertices  and maybe also
>>>>> HasLabelsOnEdges if needed.
>>>>
>>>> do you remember that we reintroduced the WeightedGraph just for the
>>>> type inference issue on fluent APIs in Eclipse, do you? ;) It would
>>>> have been worked otherwise as well dropping the WeightedGraph and
>>>> expressing types only on Vertex/Edges
>>>
>>>
>>> that is right. On the other hand with "HasWeightedEdges" we could drop
>>> "WeightedEdge" and so on: one interface in, one out.
>>>
>>> Or we could even save both approaches as alternative implementations.
>>> That
>>> is:
>>>
>>> * a set of interfaces: e.g. HasWeightedEdges#getWeight(edge),
>>> HasWeightedVertices#getWeight(vertex), etc.
>>> * #1 implementation with external properties: the graph keeps the
>>> mapping between edge/vertex and weight, so that any type can be used
>>> for edges/vertices
>>> * #2 classical implementation: we keep markers like WeightedEdge and
>>> WeightedVertex but only the graph knows about them. algorithms keep
>>> asking the graph for weights of edges/vertices, and the graph in
>>> turn asks the edge/vertex itself (passed as parameter).
>>>
>>> WDYT?
>>>
>>>
>>>>> I know that this kind of "mismatch" is not your favourite ;) but would
>>>>> you
>>>>> really call "Operations" something which is just an "Addition"  or
>>>>> viceversa "DoubleWeightAddition" something that might later be expanded
>>>>> with
>>>>> other operations?
>>>>
>>>> I am confused now: this is what you did in the concrete implementation!
>>>
>>>
>>> no, trying to be clearer: you propose to rename Monoid into
>>> WeightOperation,
>>> which is like renaming Addition into Operation. Or alternatively to call
>>> the
>>> current *WeightBaseOperations something like *WeightMonoid. In both cases
>>> I
>>> disagree because I would prefer to keep a clear distinction between
>>> single
>>> welldefined properties/operations (like Addition or Comparator) and the
>>> comprehensive implementation (e.g. DoubleWeightBaseOperations) that
>>> implements all the operations it can implement with Doubles.
>>>
>>> Hoping we'll converge somewhere, maybe asymptotically ;)
>>> Claudio
>>>
>>>
>>>> time to sleep, cannot reply anymore, read tomorrow
>>>>
>>>> Simo
>>>>
>>>> http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
>>>> http://simonetripodi.livejournal.com/
>>>> http://twitter.com/simonetripodi
>>>> http://www.99soft.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 1:37 AM, Claudio Squarcella
>>>> <squarcel@dia.uniroma3.it> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> what if that mapping function becomes a responsibility of
>>>>>>> WeightedGraph
>>>>>>> itself?
>>>>>>> And more generally, what if any property of vertices and/or edges
is
>>>>>>> moved to the containing graph?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that would imply that Graph implementations have to implement vertices
>>>>>> and/or edges metadata indexing, that would be anyway less performant
>>>>>> than accessing directly on metadata contained in current node/arc

>>>>>> just count the number of time you should have to touch the adapted
>>>>>> data structures, of course will be at least one more than the actual.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> that is absolutely right. Not asymptotically if the implementation is
>>>>> good
>>>>> (hashmaps are already good enough with their read time which is
>>>>> basically
>>>>> constant), but still there is one more step of indirection. So we would
>>>>> need
>>>>> to test and compare performances, hopefully with acceptable results.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> We could externalize all different graph properties to appropriate
>>>>>>> interfaces (HasWeightsOnEdges, HasLabelsOnVertices, etc) and
then
>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> algorithm specifies the needed input graph including the subset
of
>>>>>>> interfaces it needs to implement. We do something like that with
>>>>>>> weight
>>>>>>> operations already.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am worried that with that approach the number of interfaces would
>>>>>> proliferate like pollen during Spring, users  and devs  would get
>>>>>> easily lost
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> but that would happen anyway as soon as we implement an algorithm with
>>>>> weights on vertices, right? Here are the options I see:
>>>>>
>>>>> * with the current approach: one interface for edgeweighted graphs
>>>>> (EdgeWeightedGraph, renaming the current WeightedGraph?), one for
>>>>> vertexweighted graphs (VertexWeightedGraph) and maybe even one for
>>>>> weights on both edges and vertices (EdgeAndVertexWeightedGraph?) 
>>>>> not to talk about their counterparts with labels, etc;
>>>>> * with the proposed approach: a Graph would implement
>>>>> HasWeightsOnEdges and/or HasWeightsOnVertices  and maybe also
>>>>> HasLabelsOnEdges if needed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> weights are something already complicated for being a simple concept,
>>>>>> please apologize for the little offtopic:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Zero, name of an element, contains `zero` method to get the zero
(it
>>>>>> is still confusing to me), Monoid extends Zero and Semigroup 
given
>>>>>> the use inside graph math, Zero#zero and Semigroup#append can be
moved
>>>>>> directly to Monoid and rename it as WeightOperation  does it remind
>>>>>> you something? :P
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can agree with most of what you say but I would still call the result
>>>>> Monoid, or maybe even better Addition  because that is what it is,
a
>>>>> Monoid representing the sum operation. "WeightOperation" sounds more
>>>>> like
>>>>> a
>>>>> general "container" which can include Addition, Comparator, and maybe
>>>>> in
>>>>> the
>>>>> near future Multiplication or who knows what  which again is pretty
>>>>> much
>>>>> what happens now with the wrappers for Double, Integer, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that this kind of "mismatch" is not your favourite ;) but would
>>>>> you
>>>>> really call "Operations" something which is just an "Addition"  or
>>>>> viceversa "DoubleWeightAddition" something that might later be expanded
>>>>> with
>>>>> other operations?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ciao and thanks for your feedback!
>>>>> Claudio
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> best,
>>>>>> Simo
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
>>>>>> http://simonetripodi.livejournal.com/
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/simonetripodi
>>>>>> http://www.99soft.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:22 PM, Claudio Squarcella
>>>>>> <squarcel@dia.uniroma3.it> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The weights can be external, too. It's only a function
from edge to
>>>>>>>> weight. Your algorithm can take a function for its weights.
The
>>>>>>>> files
>>>>>>>> library does it similar to this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what if that mapping function becomes a responsibility of
>>>>>>> WeightedGraph
>>>>>>> itself? And more generally, what if any property of vertices
and/or
>>>>>>> edges
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> moved to the containing graph?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We could externalize all different graph properties to appropriate
>>>>>>> interfaces (HasWeightsOnEdges, HasLabelsOnVertices, etc) and
then
>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> algorithm specifies the needed input graph including the subset
of
>>>>>>> interfaces it needs to implement. We do something like that with
>>>>>>> weight
>>>>>>> operations already.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Claudio
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 2, 2012 3:08 PM, "Ted Dunning"<ted.dunning@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Having weights on vertices is quite common. Consider
any
>>>>>>>>> probability
>>>>>>>>> transition network. The weight on each node is the
probability of
>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> that state and the weights on the edges are conditional
>>>>>>>>> probabilties.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Page rank is a related example of having weights on nodes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:40 AM, Claudio Squarcella<
>>>>>>>>> squarcel@dia.uniroma3.it> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Claudio is aware also about algorithms where weights
are
>>>>>>>>>> associated
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Vertex  he's preparing his PhD research on graphes
 maybe he
>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>> show us a more longvision roadmap and evaluate
benefits on
>>>>>>>>>>> simplifying the design.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> yes there are algorithms with weights on vertices.
Of course those
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> weighted edges (like the ones already implemented)
are much more
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> widespread
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and frequently used, but still we cannot forget about
that. Also,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> although
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> on a secondary level, labels on vertices/edges are
kind of
>>>>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> many situations (including testing, debugging) where
I think it is
>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> keep them distinct from the standard "toString" method
(you might
>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> represent only a subset of info in the label, etc).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Matthew Pocock suggested an alternative approach
back in the days
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> weight abstraction:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> * the graph itself is extremely simple and naked:
no
>>>>>>>>>> weights/labels
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> vertices/edges;
>>>>>>>>>> * all properties are stored in some external structure,
which I
>>>>>>>>>> imagine composed of associative maps (Map<Edge,
Weight>, etc
>>>>>>>>>> etc).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He motivated the idea with a "personal use case":
often graphs are
>>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>>> and reused with the same structure but different
weights (and/or
>>>>>>>>>> labels,
>>>>>>>>>> etc). Now if James' question becomes a second use
case, maybe it's
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> right time to exhume that idea ;)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ciao,
>>>>>>>>>> Claudio
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Claudio Squarcella
>>>>>>>>>> PhD student at Roma Tre University
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.dia.uniroma3.it/~**squarcel<
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.dia.uniroma3.it/~squarcel>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://squarcella.com/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ****
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, email: devunsubscribe@commons.**apache.org<
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> devunsubscribe@commons.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, email: devhelp@commons.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Claudio Squarcella
>>>>>>> PhD student at Roma Tre University
>>>>>>> http://www.dia.uniroma3.it/~squarcel
>>>>>>> http://squarcella.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, email: devunsubscribe@commons.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For additional commands, email: devhelp@commons.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, email: devunsubscribe@commons.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, email: devhelp@commons.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Claudio Squarcella
>>>>> PhD student at Roma Tre University
>>>>> http://www.dia.uniroma3.it/~squarcel
>>>>> http://squarcella.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> To unsubscribe, email: devunsubscribe@commons.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, email: devhelp@commons.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> To unsubscribe, email: devunsubscribe@commons.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, email: devhelp@commons.apache.org
>>>>
>>> 
>>> Claudio Squarcella
>>> PhD student at Roma Tre University
>>> http://www.dia.uniroma3.it/~squarcel
>>> http://squarcella.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> To unsubscribe, email: devunsubscribe@commons.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, email: devhelp@commons.apache.org
>>>
>> 
>> To unsubscribe, email: devunsubscribe@commons.apache.org
>> For additional commands, email: devhelp@commons.apache.org
>>
>
> 
> Claudio Squarcella
> PhD student at Roma Tre University
> http://www.dia.uniroma3.it/~squarcel
> http://squarcella.com/
>
>
> 
> To unsubscribe, email: devunsubscribe@commons.apache.org
> For additional commands, email: devhelp@commons.apache.org
>

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