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From Simone Tripodi <simonetrip...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [logging] logging vs slf4j
Date Tue, 09 Aug 2011 18:54:46 GMT
Hi all guys!!!
sorry for joining so  late the discussion (working on some stuff as
bricklayer at home!!! didn't know it is fun!)

 * I don't understand why JULI should be so "complicated" to be
adopted... if in trouble, please take a look at juli-to-log4j[1] bride
written by our ASF mate Paul Smith. I'm a big fan on Google Guice and
I tend to write my tasks on work on top of JSR330 using it - it relies
100% on JULI for logging, when/if something goes wrong, I just hijack
the logging to log4j or logback. done. And believe me, if I can do it,
everybody can.

 * given the previous fact, the proposed facade by slf4j reminds me
what we could already do using JULI and related bridges - please
correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure there are missing features I'm not
aware, but I could bridge JULI to logback as well - and if omitting
the -Djava.util.logging.manager=org.apache.logging.julbridge.JULBridgeLogManager
is a so huge difference, I missed something

 * Ceki, you can't immagine how much I have to be thankful to you!!!
:) I strongly respect you, your POV and what you've been doing, but I
hope there will be the chance to bring you back to the ASF :)

Have a nice day, all the best!!!
Simo

[1] http://people.apache.org/~psmith/logging.apache.org/sandbox/jul-log4j-bridge/

http://people.apache.org/~simonetripodi/
http://www.99soft.org/



On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Ceki Gulcu <ceki@qos.ch> wrote:
> On 09.08.2011 11:57, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Another option is to try to work with Ceki to address some of the
>>>> concerns of the commons community with regards to using slf4j.
>>>>
>>>> * There is a hassle with too many jars for dependencies with slf4j.
>>>> * Every time Ceki goes on vacation everything stops.
>>>> * Some have a preference for Apache driven projects.
>>>> * Figuring out the dependencies that are needed can be difficult.
>>>
>>> Another option would be to try to convince Ceki to move his project to
>>> the ASF?  He is an ASF member, right?  What were his concerns about
>>> the ASF that made him start his project elsewhere?
>>
>> Ceki is an ASF member and even a Logging PMC.
>> You can read most about his concerns on his blog, for example:
>> http://ceki.blogspot.com/2010/05/forces-and-vulnerabilites-of-apache.html
>> http://ceki.blogspot.com/2010/05/committocracy-as-alternative-for.html
>>
>> He seems to be very opposed to the ASF model; there was much bad
>> feelings in the "log4j case" before I started with logging and
>> therefore I doubt that Ceki is willing to go back to the ASF. At least
>> his blogposts reflect that he is not satisfied with the "Apache Way"
>> itself instead of personal trouble, which we might be able to solve.
>> Ceki is reading this list, so maybe he wants to elaborate a bit more.
>
> * On the ASF model
>
> In a nutshell, while the ASF is a great organization in many ways, it
> is not a meritocracy mainly because merit is not measured at all and
> at the project level no responsiblity is accrued on merit beyond
> committership. BTW, the BDFL model is not a meritocracy
> either. Finding a good model for running organisations is no simple
> matter. The Apache model may even be better than some but it bothers
> me that the ASF misrepresents itself as a meritocracy.
>
> * On logging
>
> One of the disadvantages of a relatively large and open ecosystem such
> as Java is that you get several competing libraries solving common
> problems. Logging is a rather devisive case in point.
>
> SLF4J has deficiences with regards to modularity are imho testimony to
> the lack of a widely accepted solution to modularity in Java. In any
> case, I am unaware of a satisfactory solution. OSGi is of course one
> possible approach but OSGi is a complex beast and not that widely
> accepted (yet).
>
> As for deficiences in SLF4J API, varargs support [1] and event data
> support come to mind. Varargs support is very likely to be added in
> SLF4J 2.0. As for event data support mentioned by Ralph, the idea was
> initially proposed by Joern Huxhorn. I am not entirely convinced by
> it.
>
> However, Ralph is right to observe that had SLF4J been developped at
> the ASF and that Ralph, Joern and me were the only SLF4J
> developpers, event data support would probably be part of the SLF4J
> API. Having said that, since event data support is a little
> controversial, it might have been turned down at the ASF as well
> (assuming the involvement of more developpers who shared my lack of
> enthusiams for event data).
>
> Anyway, Ralph made some very valuable contributiuons to the logback
> project and I am sorry to see him stop. Given what I have seen of his
> work, he will surely do an excellent job with log4j v2.
>
> [1] http://bugzilla.slf4j.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31
>
> --
> Ceki
>
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