From commons-dev-return-68981-apmail-jakarta-commons-dev-archive=jakarta.apache.org@jakarta.apache.org Wed Mar 09 07:48:37 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: apmail-jakarta-commons-dev-archive@www.apache.org Received: (qmail 19932 invoked from network); 9 Mar 2005 07:48:36 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (209.237.227.199) by minotaur-2.apache.org with SMTP; 9 Mar 2005 07:48:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 92413 invoked by uid 500); 9 Mar 2005 07:48:33 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-jakarta-commons-dev-archive@jakarta.apache.org Received: (qmail 92344 invoked by uid 500); 9 Mar 2005 07:48:32 -0000 Mailing-List: contact commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Help: List-Post: List-Id: "Jakarta Commons Developers List" Reply-To: "Jakarta Commons Developers List" Delivered-To: mailing list commons-dev@jakarta.apache.org Received: (qmail 92331 invoked by uid 99); 9 Mar 2005 07:48:32 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.5 required=10.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE,FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: local policy) Received: from web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com (HELO web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.67) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with SMTP; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 23:48:30 -0800 Received: (qmail 39912 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Mar 2005 07:48:28 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=zjGTdo5KSKru/pMMdWaQuEUWlpB563Gf6lA7lz4hrj8VSQABzPwpEgmujwfUC7hFJgP1x8VTpPAdFdm/unGR2JUKxnlRRZJ0LIlyXfV5uKJQmSF1yXAA3c3mVUiAi8VSUyUwK8vtpYqo1hkxu2O/JsMMD1cGOB/tVsE1MkCblrs= ; Message-ID: <20050309074828.39910.qmail@web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.127.87.82] by web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 23:48:28 PST Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:48:28 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Stansberry Subject: Re: [logging] distribution packaging To: Jakarta Commons Developers List In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur-2.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --- Ceki Gülcü wrote: > > Brian, > > From a cursory look at your document, I have to > *speculate* that the > changes you describe do not solve the core flaws in > JCL but merely > hide them by falling back on java.util.logging. > However, I am only > *speculating* as I have not had a chance to study > your document with > the care that it deserves. This is definitely the case with JCL 1.0.5RC1; the exceptions you noted were (largely) no longer thrown, but JCL fell back on java.util.logging. With the packaging changes, the logging was done using the expected implementation. I didn't just want to rely on my noticing the formatting differences in the log output between the different loggers, so the test cases also log the classname of the Log wrapper. > > After careful study of JCL, I am convinced that JCL > is broken beyond > hope. While its interfaces can be salvaged, its > implementation must be > thrown away entirely. While this opinion is not > popular around here, > it is based on verifiable facts, not wishful > thinking that does not > survive critical scrutiny. > Perhaps coming down to a solution involving distributing multiple different jars, teaching users how to correctly deploy them, and then still having some use cases where JCL's discovery mechanism doesn't work qualifies as "broken beyond hope". I'm actually still somewhat on the fence on this one. I think there are two issues here: 1) Does changing packaging actually solve some of the identified problems? This issue can and should be resolved empirically. 2) Is a proposed change so ugly/difficult to understand/limited in effectiveness that it's better to not bother and instead focus energy on a more radical solution? This is really a value judgement that IMHO can best be resolved through discussion within the community. My goal to this point has been to help clarify the empirical issues so that any discussion of the value judgements could proceed from a shared base of understanding. Regarding the issues of politics you raise, I don't really have the historical background to comment other than to say that referring to your "Think Again" article as a rant was uncalled for (and actually detracts from the content of the wiki page). (OK, someone out there, flame away :-) ). > > In late 1999, National Magazine published an article > about a newly > discovered Archaeoraptor fossil, calling it "a true > missing link" > demonstrating the relation between birds and > dinosaurs, supposedly > bringing to conclusion a debate raging since the > 1860s. > > When XU XING, a Chineese palaeontologist, declared > that the > "missing-link" fossil acquired by National > Geographic was a fake, the > illustrious magazine rechecked their facts and > admitted their mistake. > They had invested considerably in the article and > had already checked > their facts. However, when XU XING's message > arrived, they did not > summarily dismiss it or ridicule his findings. They > rechecked their > facts. For the details of this fascinating story, > please refer to [2]. > Thanks for this link. I'd never heard this story. I'm also a bit of a Sinologist, so the background on the fossil trade in Liaoning is personally interesting. Brian > Recently the ASF celebrated its 10th anniversary. > IMHO, if the > foundation is ever to celebrate its 100th > anniversary, we better > develop a better tradition for dealing with critical > input. > > [1] > http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta-commons/Commons_20Logging_20FUD > [2] > http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/dinofooltrans.shtml > > On 2005-03-08 7:35:11, Brian Stansberry wrote: > > > I was a little surprised myself, which is why I > wanted to follow > > Ceki's good example and publish test cases that > could easily be > > verified (or debunked) by others. > > > -- > Ceki Gülcü > > The complete log4j manual: > http://www.qos.ch/log4j/ > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org > > __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! 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