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From Henri Yandell <bay...@generationjava.com>
Subject Re: [all] Math needs a "user" email list.
Date Fri, 13 Aug 2004 23:08:22 GMT

The problem with Apache Math is that it's a big leap to take. Mark needs
to build community before he should really try to guide [math] to that
point.

That's why I'm +0. The hope that a commons-math-user list would help the
community to be built. I do think it's unnecessary under our usual reasons
for a separate mail list, but we also all seem to agree that Apache Math
as a long term end-goal is not out of the question trying to foster a
separate mail list would help Mark guide it there.

I'd also suggest that 3 months after creating it, Mark would have to
justify the creation by showing that community has begun to grow.

Of course, there is the time honoured method. Start up an external mail
list to prove that the community may be built :) jmath.yahoo.com or
something.

Hen

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Stephen Colebourne wrote:

> I would suggest that your argument is more for Apache Math than for a new
> mailing list. (Note Apache Math, not Jakarta Math)
>
> For me, [math] goes beyond the role of a simple library of common code.
> Instead it presents a wealth of detailed mathematical code. The user of the
> library needs some mathematical knowledge to get the best from the library.
> Related to this is that the developers and advisors will be drawn from a
> different (less java/programmer centric position).
>
> Secondly, there is no reason why [math] could not be implemented in C, C# or
> another language as far as I can see. (There is no general rule here, [lang]
> and [collections] are java focussed, but [codec] could be multi-language.
>
> One option that could be considered in to use the package name
> org.apache.math for your 1.0 release even if you are still hosted in
> commons. It avoids problems later.
>
> So, consider me -0 to a commons-math-user at the moment.
>
> Stephen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark R. Diggory" <mdiggory@latte.harvard.edu>
> > Do you get my argument though?
> >
> > I'm suggesting that creating the new list will help promote maths
> > 'non-developer' user base who are interested in algorithms and stability
> > (not because the load is too high). Individuals who are not interested
> > in usage of other commons components per se. Individuals like Kim or
> > David (or anyone from the jama or colt lists), who may not necessarily
> > be developing Apache code, but could supply excellent discussion on the
> > subject area. It would really help to promote the project and attract a
> > many individuals who are knowledgeable in the field of mathematics, thus
> > offering expert feedback to help improve the product. A math library is
> > a much different beast than a collections api, discovery or bean
> > utilities; certain standards are expected. I want a list where such
> > things can be discussed without risking being bothersome to the commons
> > developer/user lists with overly abstract discussion on mathematics and
> > not overwhelming such math users with discussion from other commons
> > sub-groups.
> >
> > I think providing a user friendly environment is important here, and
> > someone barking "use a filter stupid, its not our fault" is really not
> > very user friendly, ASF has the facilities and can do better.
> >
> > -Mark
> >
> >
> > Phil Steitz wrote:
> >
> > >Sorry, but I still am not seeing the need here.  There is very little
> commons-user traffic related to [math].  My understanding is that the
> http-client split was driven by high traffic.  Commons-dev and commons-user
> benefit from a large community who comment / make suggestions on multiple
> components.  I am opposed to splitting j-c components into separate lists /
> projects unless the traffic reaches the "bothersome" level.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mark R. Diggory [mailto:mdiggory@latte.harvard.edu]
> > > Sent: Fri 8/13/2004 11:58 AM
> > > To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> > > Cc:
> > > Subject: Re: [all] Math needs a "user" email list.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Mark R. Diggory wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>> Would it be wise to establish a Jakarta Math project outside of
> commons
> > > >>> to support these sort of listserv interactions with users, even
> though
> > > >>> its unclear what code would be housed there? Or should we only
start
> a
> > > >>> parent project if we have non-commons specific code to add to
it and
> > > >>> just creat a email list specific for math users? I'm not sure
what
> would
> > > >>> be the best approach.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -Mark
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >I'd suggest going to the commons-math-user mail list, and seeing what
> > > >happens. If the community grows, then we can go in the direction the
> > > >community's makeup suggests.
> > > >
> > > >Hen
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > +1, Following a path similar to HttpClient.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Phil Steitz wrote:
> > > >
> > > >I agree with Henri on this -- I do not see the need at present and I
> would like to keep commons-user (which is not that high traffic, actually)
> consolidated.  People can easily filter, as they can on commons-dev as well.
> > > >
> > > >Phil
> > > >
> > >
> > > Phil, Its unclear to what your agreeing? Hen was +0. Your comment sounds
> > > like your not wanting it (ie -0).
> > >
> > > I strongly think the reason that commons-user is low traffic is that
> > > users do not want to get email for stuff they are not interested in nor
> > > do they want to manage complex filter rules on their email, so they
> > > never join it.
> > >
> > > Believe me, I've worked IT support for university professors, sometimes
> > > I'm very surprised they even know what an email account is...let alone
> > > filtering.
> > >
> > > -Mark
> > >
> > > --
> > > Mark R. Diggory
> > > Software Developer
> > > Harvard MIT Data Center
> > > http://www.hmdc.harvard.edu
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > >For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark R. Diggory
> > Software Developer
> > Harvard MIT Data Center
> > http://www.hmdc.harvard.edu
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
>
>
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