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From Phil Steitz <>
Subject Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Date Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:04:53 GMT
Mark R. Diggory wrote:
> This is the type of discussion I'm referring too. Here is a perfect 
> example of why commons components would benefit from separate "users" 
> lists. Users are not interested in the same discussion issues as 
> developers, the commons users list is ill adapted to the cross 
> pollination "developer" paradigm. Commons Users wish to discuss issues 
> related specifically to the component they are using while Commons 
> developers wish to maintain maximum interaction with other Commons 
> components to optimize code reuse and experience.

There are quite a few users (myself among them) who use multiple commons 
components and monitor commons-user to learn and/or help out. Just like on 
the dev list, we can easily filter on prefixes.
> Lets be clear here. I do not want to see math "development" issues occur 
> on a list separate from the other components. I do not want to see any 
> Commons Component start is own "dev list". Nor do I want to see math 
> separate from the commons. I want to see math user issues on a separate 
> list, in fact I think any Commons project should have the option to 
> produce their own users list as a means to provide user support for the 
> component independent of the other components.

So what you are talking about is just reporting bugs, asking for help, 
requesting enhancements, right?  All discussion of proposed algorithms or 
their implementation in [math] would be on commons-dev.  In that case, I 
see this as less of a problem, but I still do not see the need for it and 
I do not agree with the basic premise that each commons component should 
have its own user list.  The fact is that commons-user is not that heavy 
traffic (just over 10 messages / day on average for the past few months) 
and there is very little [math] traffic there.
> What I'm talking about is "User Support", which should be of great 
> importance to the community, as important as developer interaction.
> After a great deal of discussion, maybe this subject should be voted on 
> to bring the subject to completion. Otherwise, it will just get more 
> heated.

We should not have to resort to a vote on this. I suggest that we suspend 
this discussion until we get 1.0 out and then we can discuss lists, more 
ambitious projects, etc. as part of a post-1.0 roadmap discussion.

> -Mark
> Kim van der Linde wrote:
>> --- Martin Cooper <> wrote:
>>> It seems that you are missing the single most
>>> important facet of Jakarta Commons here - community.
>>> Commons is one community,   
>> A community from whom? Whom are in it? Only hard-core
>> developers? Or the developers and users at large?
>> Apparently, I have a different idea about e-mail lists
>> than most here. So be it.
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