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From "Mark R. Diggory" <>
Subject Re: [all] Math needs a "user" email list.
Date Sat, 14 Aug 2004 02:52:05 GMT
Henri Yandell wrote:

>The problem with Apache Math is that it's a big leap to take. Mark needs
>to build community before he should really try to guide [math] to that
I agree

>That's why I'm +0. The hope that a commons-math-user list would help the
>community to be built. I do think it's unnecessary under our usual reasons
>for a separate mail list, but we also all seem to agree that Apache Math
>as a long term end-goal is not out of the question trying to foster a
>separate mail list would help Mark guide it there.
>I'd also suggest that 3 months after creating it, Mark would have to
>justify the creation by showing that community has begun to grow.
I think math could accept such an agreement. What would be a 
justification, "list activity" above a certain threshold?

>Of course, there is the time honoured method. Start up an external mail
>list to prove that the community may be built :) or
Seems it would be difficult to keep everything focused around apache in 
such a case.


>On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Stephen Colebourne wrote:
>>I would suggest that your argument is more for Apache Math than for a new
>>mailing list. (Note Apache Math, not Jakarta Math)
>>For me, [math] goes beyond the role of a simple library of common code.
>>Instead it presents a wealth of detailed mathematical code. The user of the
>>library needs some mathematical knowledge to get the best from the library.
>>Related to this is that the developers and advisors will be drawn from a
>>different (less java/programmer centric position).
>>Secondly, there is no reason why [math] could not be implemented in C, C# or
>>another language as far as I can see. (There is no general rule here, [lang]
>>and [collections] are java focussed, but [codec] could be multi-language.
>>One option that could be considered in to use the package name
>>org.apache.math for your 1.0 release even if you are still hosted in
>>commons. It avoids problems later.
>>So, consider me -0 to a commons-math-user at the moment.
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Mark R. Diggory" <>
>>>Do you get my argument though?
>>>I'm suggesting that creating the new list will help promote maths
>>>'non-developer' user base who are interested in algorithms and stability
>>>(not because the load is too high). Individuals who are not interested
>>>in usage of other commons components per se. Individuals like Kim or
>>>David (or anyone from the jama or colt lists), who may not necessarily
>>>be developing Apache code, but could supply excellent discussion on the
>>>subject area. It would really help to promote the project and attract a
>>>many individuals who are knowledgeable in the field of mathematics, thus
>>>offering expert feedback to help improve the product. A math library is
>>>a much different beast than a collections api, discovery or bean
>>>utilities; certain standards are expected. I want a list where such
>>>things can be discussed without risking being bothersome to the commons
>>>developer/user lists with overly abstract discussion on mathematics and
>>>not overwhelming such math users with discussion from other commons
>>>I think providing a user friendly environment is important here, and
>>>someone barking "use a filter stupid, its not our fault" is really not
>>>very user friendly, ASF has the facilities and can do better.
Mark R. Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center

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