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From Al Chou <>
Subject Re: [all] Math needs a "user" & a "dev" email list.
Date Sun, 15 Aug 2004 01:27:23 GMT
--- "Mark R. Diggory" <> wrote:
> This is the type of discussion I'm referring too. Here is a perfect 
> example of why commons components would benefit from separate "users" 
> lists. Users are not interested in the same discussion issues as 
> developers, the commons users list is ill adapted to the cross 
> pollination "developer" paradigm. Commons Users wish to discuss issues 
> related specifically to the component they are using while Commons 
> developers wish to maintain maximum interaction with other Commons 
> components to optimize code reuse and experience.
> Lets be clear here. I do not want to see math "development" issues occur 
> on a list separate from the other components. I do not want to see any 
> Commons Component start is own "dev list". Nor do I want to see math 
> separate from the commons. I want to see math user issues on a separate 
> list, in fact I think any Commons project should have the option to 
> produce their own users list as a means to provide user support for the 
> component independent of the other components.

+1 to all of the above paragraph.

> What I'm talking about is "User Support", which should be of great 
> importance to the community, as important as developer interaction.
> After a great deal of discussion, maybe this subject should be voted on 
> to bring the subject to completion. Otherwise, it will just get more heated.

+1 if a vote will resolve the issue and let the commons-dev community get back
to development discussions.

I was going to reply to Phil's last message but then saw this and Mark's next
reply, and it seems to me that commons-dev should try to remain a single
community, whereas "commons-*-user" might well be separate communities per
specific instance of the "*".  Speaking for myself, as a user of a piece of
third-party software often I don't care about the discussions its developers
are having about its internals, but rather only care about the user-level
interface or API and how to use it, which isn't necessarily the same kind of
developer's-point-of-view as that of the developers of the internals of that
software, even if it may still be code-centric.  For example, I use Java, but I
wouldn't want to have to follow Sun's internal "java-dev" mailing list (or
whatever the equivalent may be) in order to get answers to my questions about
Java.  Does that make me not a member of the "Java community", or just not a
member of the "Java internals developers community"?

> -Mark
> Kim van der Linde wrote:
> >--- Martin Cooper <> wrote:
> >>It seems that you are missing the single most
> >>important facet of Jakarta Commons here - community.
> >
> >>Commons is one community, 
> >
> >A community from whom? Whom are in it? Only hard-core
> >developers? Or the developers and users at large?
> >Apparently, I have a different idea about e-mail lists
> >than most here. So be it.

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