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From: "Howard M. Lewis Ship" <hlship@comcast.net>
To: "'Jakarta Commons Developers List'" <commons-dev@jakarta.apache.org>
Subject: RE: Company Acknowledgements [was :Re: [HiveMind] 1.0 Beta]
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:44:23 -0500
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Importance: Normal

HiveMind was developed in place in the sandbox ... it's not a case of =
existing code being moved over
into the ASF's CVS repository; the only code that moved into HiveMind =
did so laterally from
Tapestry.

Did I have the right to do so? At the time, I was 100% certain I did ... =
WebCT and I disagree on
this issue and it is, to my mind, debatable (everything in HiveMind can =
be traced back to specific
ideas already present in Tapestry even before my joining WebCT). =
Fortunately, nobody wants to debate
it. Everyone involved wants the code to stay at the ASF, with an ASF =
copyright, under the ASL.

So, what would you propose? Strip HiveMind out of the sandbox CVS? Track =
down any backup mirrors and
erase them?  Kidnap its users and brain wash them?

--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/hivemind/
http://javatapestry.blogspot.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Cooper [mailto:martinc@apache.org]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 3:25 PM
> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> Subject: RE: Company Acknowledgements [was :Re: [HiveMind] 1.0 Beta]
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
>=20
> > Making mountains out of molehills here, people.
>=20
> No, it's not making mountains out of molehills. Right now, as=20
> I write this, there is code in the Apache CVS repository=20
> which does not legally belong to the ASF. Right now, the ASF=20
> is exposed, legally, because of that.
>=20
> It doesn't matter what "will" happen, or "should" happen, or=20
> what various people "want" to happen. The truth is that the=20
> ASF is legally exposed. That needs to be fixed, right now.
>=20
> --
> Martin Cooper
>=20
>=20
> >
> > WebCT wants to donate the IP free and clear.  I want them=20
> to. We even=20
> > agree on what the proposal looks like. The copyright will=20
> be assigned=20
> > to ASF and the license will be ASL. The only sticking point is the=20
> > order of operations ... they would have prefered that the=20
> source code=20
> > stay private inside WebCT until they introduced the idea of=20
> > contributing it. They realize that the cat is out of the bag; more=20
> > importantly, HiveMind is not a central part of their=20
> business (they do=20
> > enterprise education, not J2EE infrastructure). Let things=20
> slide a bit=20
> > until the proposal is public and you'll see there's no real issue=20
> > here.
> >
> > Underlying this all is a disagreement between WebCT and=20
> myself about=20
> > what IP is mine (to assign over to the ASF) and what is there's. I=20
> > could get into a pissing match with them -- but instead we're
> > *all* acting professionally and in good faith and in=20
> everyone's mutual interest, to make this
> > temporary ownership issue irrelevant.
> >
> > --
> > Howard M. Lewis Ship
> > Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components=20
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/hivemind/
> > http://javatapestry.blogspot.com
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: David Graham [mailto:grahamdavid1980@yahoo.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 2:19 PM
> > > To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> > > Subject: RE: Company Acknowledgements [was :Re:=20
> [HiveMind] 1.0 Beta]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- hlship@comcast.net wrote:
> > > > There was an even earlier post, to Jakarta General, concerning=20
> > > > this question of IP.  I maintain, due to the volume of code and=20
> > > > concepts that were copied out of (or adapted out of)=20
> Tapestry that
> > > WebCT would
> > > > not win any kind of legal challenge to the ownership of the
> > > IP ... but
> > > > it would be murky, based on my employment with them overlapping=20
> > > > the development. The point is, by making them happy, the IP,=20
> > > > ownership, copyright, etc., will be clearly owned by=20
> the ASF which=20
> > > > is
> > > in the best
> > > > interests of myself, the HiveMind project, the ASF and WebCT.
> > >
> > > This answer isn't making me feel any better about the issues=20
> > > surrounding HiveMind.  We need an official ruling from=20
> the ASF (or=20
> > > other suitable Apache governing body) before HiveMind can move=20
> > > forward.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > hlship@apache.org
> > > >
> > > > Creator, Tapestry: Java Web
> > > > Components
> > > > http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
> > > > > > I've been trading drafts of the proposal and I think
> > > they are on
> > > > > > the right track. I suspect we'll be going forward soon
> > > -- possibly
> > > > > > today.
> > > > >
> > > > > I can't find in the archives where you've made the=20
> Jakarta PMC=20
> > > > > or the
> > > > ASF
> > > > > Board aware of this specific incident.  When IP=20
> ownership issues=20
> > > > > arise
> > > > on a
> > > > > project, as you made this project aware on October 22
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > (http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=3Dcommons-d
> > > ev@jakarta.apa
> > > > > che.org&msgId=3D1096118), it seems to me that either the PMC=20
> > > > > and/or the
> > > > Board
> > > > > ought to be directly brought into the loop.  As you said,
> > > > "fortunately,
> > > > > nobody's out to cause trouble", but it could easily have gone=20
> > > > > the
> > > > other way
> > > > > (and it isn't resolved, yet).
> > > > >
> > > > > Robert Leland made the same comment to you on October 27th,=20
> > > > > about
> > > > receiving
> > > > > some guidance from the Foundation.  Corporate software
> > > grants, such
> > > > > as
> > > > the
> > > > > one with BEA for XMLBeans, are certainly do-able.  But
> > > for a PMC and
> > > > the
> > > > > Board to ensure proper oversight within a TLP and across the=20
> > > > > ASF,
> > > >
> > > > > respectively, they need to be made aware of when=20
> problems such=20
> > > > > as this
> > > > one
> > > > > arise.
> > > > >
> > > > > 	--- Noel
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >=20
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