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From "Howard M. Lewis Ship" <hls...@comcast.net>
Subject RE: Company Acknowledgements [was :Re: [HiveMind] 1.0 Beta]
Date Wed, 05 Nov 2003 01:44:23 GMT
HiveMind was developed in place in the sandbox ... it's not a case of existing code being moved
over
into the ASF's CVS repository; the only code that moved into HiveMind did so laterally from
Tapestry.

Did I have the right to do so? At the time, I was 100% certain I did ... WebCT and I disagree
on
this issue and it is, to my mind, debatable (everything in HiveMind can be traced back to
specific
ideas already present in Tapestry even before my joining WebCT). Fortunately, nobody wants
to debate
it. Everyone involved wants the code to stay at the ASF, with an ASF copyright, under the
ASL.

So, what would you propose? Strip HiveMind out of the sandbox CVS? Track down any backup mirrors
and
erase them?  Kidnap its users and brain wash them?

--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/hivemind/
http://javatapestry.blogspot.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Cooper [mailto:martinc@apache.org] 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 3:25 PM
> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> Subject: RE: Company Acknowledgements [was :Re: [HiveMind] 1.0 Beta]
> 
> 
> On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> 
> > Making mountains out of molehills here, people.
> 
> No, it's not making mountains out of molehills. Right now, as 
> I write this, there is code in the Apache CVS repository 
> which does not legally belong to the ASF. Right now, the ASF 
> is exposed, legally, because of that.
> 
> It doesn't matter what "will" happen, or "should" happen, or 
> what various people "want" to happen. The truth is that the 
> ASF is legally exposed. That needs to be fixed, right now.
> 
> --
> Martin Cooper
> 
> 
> >
> > WebCT wants to donate the IP free and clear.  I want them 
> to. We even 
> > agree on what the proposal looks like. The copyright will 
> be assigned 
> > to ASF and the license will be ASL. The only sticking point is the 
> > order of operations ... they would have prefered that the 
> source code 
> > stay private inside WebCT until they introduced the idea of 
> > contributing it. They realize that the cat is out of the bag; more 
> > importantly, HiveMind is not a central part of their 
> business (they do 
> > enterprise education, not J2EE infrastructure). Let things 
> slide a bit 
> > until the proposal is public and you'll see there's no real issue 
> > here.
> >
> > Underlying this all is a disagreement between WebCT and 
> myself about 
> > what IP is mine (to assign over to the ASF) and what is there's. I 
> > could get into a pissing match with them -- but instead we're
> > *all* acting professionally and in good faith and in 
> everyone's mutual interest, to make this
> > temporary ownership issue irrelevant.
> >
> > --
> > Howard M. Lewis Ship
> > Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components 
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/hivemind/
> > http://javatapestry.blogspot.com
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: David Graham [mailto:grahamdavid1980@yahoo.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 2:19 PM
> > > To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> > > Subject: RE: Company Acknowledgements [was :Re: 
> [HiveMind] 1.0 Beta]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- hlship@comcast.net wrote:
> > > > There was an even earlier post, to Jakarta General, concerning 
> > > > this question of IP.  I maintain, due to the volume of code and 
> > > > concepts that were copied out of (or adapted out of) 
> Tapestry that
> > > WebCT would
> > > > not win any kind of legal challenge to the ownership of the
> > > IP ... but
> > > > it would be murky, based on my employment with them overlapping 
> > > > the development. The point is, by making them happy, the IP, 
> > > > ownership, copyright, etc., will be clearly owned by 
> the ASF which 
> > > > is
> > > in the best
> > > > interests of myself, the HiveMind project, the ASF and WebCT.
> > >
> > > This answer isn't making me feel any better about the issues 
> > > surrounding HiveMind.  We need an official ruling from 
> the ASF (or 
> > > other suitable Apache governing body) before HiveMind can move 
> > > forward.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > hlship@apache.org
> > > >
> > > > Creator, Tapestry: Java Web
> > > > Components
> > > > http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
> > > > > > I've been trading drafts of the proposal and I think
> > > they are on
> > > > > > the right track. I suspect we'll be going forward soon
> > > -- possibly
> > > > > > today.
> > > > >
> > > > > I can't find in the archives where you've made the 
> Jakarta PMC 
> > > > > or the
> > > > ASF
> > > > > Board aware of this specific incident.  When IP 
> ownership issues 
> > > > > arise
> > > > on a
> > > > > project, as you made this project aware on October 22
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > (http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=commons-d
> > > ev@jakarta.apa
> > > > > che.org&msgId=1096118), it seems to me that either the PMC 
> > > > > and/or the
> > > > Board
> > > > > ought to be directly brought into the loop.  As you said,
> > > > "fortunately,
> > > > > nobody's out to cause trouble", but it could easily have gone 
> > > > > the
> > > > other way
> > > > > (and it isn't resolved, yet).
> > > > >
> > > > > Robert Leland made the same comment to you on October 27th, 
> > > > > about
> > > > receiving
> > > > > some guidance from the Foundation.  Corporate software
> > > grants, such
> > > > > as
> > > > the
> > > > > one with BEA for XMLBeans, are certainly do-able.  But
> > > for a PMC and
> > > > the
> > > > > Board to ensure proper oversight within a TLP and across the 
> > > > > ASF,
> > > >
> > > > > respectively, they need to be made aware of when 
> problems such 
> > > > > as this
> > > > one
> > > > > arise.
> > > > >
> > > > > 	--- Noel
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > 
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