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From Ted Husted <>
Subject Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content
Date Sun, 06 Jan 2002 23:16:45 GMT
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> I don't see why the basis isn't Intake. Why not work to move Intake to
> commons and then work towards a framework independent implementation in
> Commons?

Thanks for volunteering. 

> Of course it is easier to start from scratch to invent yet another
> validation framework. This is where I see another failure of Jakarta. People
> only go with the easiest route without any concern about the long term mess
> they are making.

David's framework is over a year old. It's not a new product, but an
already useful one that we are adopting. There is also interest in this
package in the Velocity group. 

> I feel like Jakarta is just going down this path of having a bazillion
> different implementations and versions of the same thing and it is only
> getting worse. Commons was supposed to help clean that up by providing a
> central location, however all I see is it making it worse because people are
> just re-inventing what already exists in other projects instead of using
> existing projects as the basis.
> A perfect example of this recently was the discussion about Torque. Hey,
> Torque exists, but it is *easier* to re-invent it rather than simply spend
> the time to figure it out, understand it and move it to commons (or a top
> level project).

Torque is a perfect example. Personally, I can't make heads or tails out
of it. And its not for lack of trying. I'm just not as smart as you.
It's not reasonable to expect every developer is going to another Jon

Jon, as much as I love you, everything you touch doesn't turn to gold.
Just because Torque exists doesn't mean that it's a one-size-fits all

> I'm starting to realize that Jakarta has grown to becoming a place where
> people only scratch their own itches and I agree that that is the basis for
> open source. However, we have no overall direction. We all have our own
> opinions and spend days and days discussing them and when it comes down to
> putting code into CVS, people do whatever they want anyway because there is
> no set of checks and balances to put some sort of higher level control over
> things.

Last I knew the check and balance was -1

If we need a higher level of overt control that the Committers to a
codebase, then, yes, we have failed.

> In Java Apache, these issues never came up because there were only a few
> projects and a few people expressing their opinions. Now, Jakarta has grown
> into literally hundreds of people expressing their opinions and doing what
> they want. Commons has become an area where people have a free CVS commit
> tree to put whatever they want into it, which is fine, however these people
> doing the commits haven't spent the time to do things as simple as figuring
> out what the proper way to format code according to the Jakarta rules.

We have done a very poor job of expressing to people what the rules are.
It is totally unreasonable to expect hundreds of people to get the
message 72 hours after we've started posting reminders. 

> People keep saying that Jakarta isn't broken. Well, if it isn't broken, then
> how come we have so many people doing their own thing and not working
> together? Jakarta is supposed to be a group collective, however it is
> becoming nothing more than another Sourceforge.

I disagree. We are working together. We are trying to turn our
monolithic codebases into components that other products can use. And we
are succeeding. 

The validator underyling this post is a perfect example. Instead of
burying it in the Struts distribution, the Struts Committers made a
deliberate decision to bring it to the Commons, with David taking the
lead. If something like Intake (whatever that is) was available in the
Commons 18 months ago, then we all might have used that instead. 

We are making progress, but it is unrealistic and unreasonable to expect
everything to happen instantaneously. We all do what we can as soon as
we can. 

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web

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