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From Bart Remmerie <remme...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Is cocoon dead ?
Date Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:38:25 GMT
Hi Robby & others,

I'm not judging the steps that have been taken.  I'm just wondering why
there was such a decline in active community.

IMHO, moving to Maven, 2.2 and 3.0 make sense,
but there's something missing that you need if you want to keep your
userbase broad & involved: decent documentation and an acceptable learning
curve !


And remember, an autopsy has a function: learn from previous mistakes.

Bart

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Robby Pelssers <Robby.Pelssers@nxp.com>wrote:

> Hi Bart,
>
> I'd say we've learned people are reluctant to change.. even developers.
> But to be honest.. it was C2.2 forcing me to learn maven and I've been
> using it ever since for all new projects. Same holds true for Spring
> actually.  And where I could understand the drop back then, maven or Spring
> can hardly be considered to be valid reasons not to use newer versions of
> Cocoon.
>
> I think I can agree on two things:
> C2.1 and C2.2 are pretty complete in what they have to offer.  They are
> also pretty well documented. But most advanced users have moved to C2.2 or
> C3 and can't offer good support for the older versions.  I guess it's the
> developers own responsibility to (NOT?) upgrade on a regular basis and
> dealing with corresponding consequences of his choice.
>
> C3 is already used in production and in my opinion easier to use.  The
> biggest problem is it's still coined alpha.  We should really focus on
> getting c3 1.0 out which will give users a more confident feeling API's
> won't break that easily.
>
> Robby
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bart Remmerie [mailto:remmerie@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 9:21 PM
> To: users@cocoon.apache.org
> Cc: users@cocoon.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is cocoon dead ?
>
> Just being critical & analytical: where die we observe the big drop in
> community activity ?  Switch to Maven & move from 2.1.11 to next version ?
> (just a guess) => What can we learn from this ?
>
> Bart Remmerie
>
> Op 11-nov.-2012 om 18:13 heeft Michael Müller <
> michael.mueller@mueller-bruehl.de> het volgende geschreven:
>
> > Francesco,
> >
> > I observe this list for years now (since I started using Cocon 2.1). And
> I recongnized some activities, especially from you. But since a couple of
> years I'm using a) a different technology (JSF) for my web pages and b) I'm
> waiting for Cocoon 3.0 to become ready. Even there are some acitivies, it
> seems to be a never ending story.
> >
> > I guess it would be helpfull to schedule some dates for beta and
> release. If it is so much to do right now, maybe this version might be
> feature-reduced and some of the planned features will be postponed to a
> version 3.1? Otherwise I'm afraid this project is dead - even though there
> are some activities.
> >
> > If your horse is dead, don't try to ride it anymore. Change the horse.
> > (similar to Dakota saying)
> >
> > Herzliche Grüße - Best Regards,
> > Michael Müller
> >
> > Am 10.11.2012 14:00, schrieb Francesco Chicchiriccò:
> >> Hi all,
> >> I think e-mails like the one below are not helpful at all.
> >>
> >> First of all, even though most of critical aspects of our current
> >> situation are reported, some things are barely wrong:
> >>
> >>> down the same page you find the next most recent news is a year and
> >>> a half old
> >> Open your favorite browser at http://cocoon.apache.org/ and read that
> >> latest two news are dated July 2nd and March 3rd 2012
> >>
> >>> When people ask about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2)
> >>> nobody wants to talk about it (except others desperate for
> >>> information about some aspect of C2);
> >> Just browse http://cocoon.markmail.org and judge by yourself whether
> >> this is true or not.
> >>
> >>> There are no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade
> old.
> >> Just point again your favorite browser to
> >> http://www.apache.org/dist/cocoon/ and you will see that Cocoon
> >> 2.1.11 was released on Jan 14th 2008.
> >>
> >>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal,
> and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to complete
> it keep asking others to do that.
> >> This is absolutely false for C2.X and only partially true for C3.
> >>
> >> Beware, I am not stating that the Cocoon status is healthy, new
> >> releases with bugfixes and new features are regularly made available
> >> and documentation is accurate and complete.
> >> I am only trying to look at the Cocoon project for what it is
> >> *today*: a project with:
> >>  * very few active committers
> >>  * almost no occasional contributors
> >>  * still a lot of interested people: most because they are running an
> >> ancient Cocoon version, few because they've heard of Cocoon only
> >> recently
> >>
> >> In my opinion, a dead project is a project in which no one is
> >> interested, and Cocoon is not (yet?) that far.
> >>
> >> Remembering that Cocoon - like as any other project at ASF - is
> >> exclusively made up by volunteer contribution, I'd rather start a
> >> [DISCUSS] thread to see what needs to be done and who is available to
> >> help instead of such acid and unproductive e-mails.
> >>
> >> WDYT?
> >>
> >> Regards.
> >>
> >> On 08/11/2012 15:10, Mark H. Wood wrote:
> >>> I'm not surprised at all.  Looking 3cm. down the same page you find
> >>> the next most recent news is a year and a half old.  When people ask
> >>> about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to
> >>> talk about it (except others desperate for information about some
> >>> aspect of C2); one is told to use C3.  C3 has been alpha for perhaps
> >>> two years -- there is as yet no beta, let alone a release.  There
> >>> are no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
> >>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal,
> >>> and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to
> >>> complete it keep asking others to do that.  Bugs with patches
> >>> attached languish for years.  Seemingly everyone using Cocoon is
> >>> running a unique local version with scads of patches that are passed
> >>> around like ancient lore.
> >>>
> >>> Why would anyone think Cocoon is dead?
> >
> >
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> >
>
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>
>


-- 
Bart Remmerie
+32 (0477) 78.88.76
remmerie@gmail.com

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