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From Robby Pelssers <Robby.Pelss...@nxp.com>
Subject RE: Is cocoon dead ?
Date Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:40:15 GMT
Hi Bart,

I'd say we've learned people are reluctant to change.. even developers. But to be honest..
it was C2.2 forcing me to learn maven and I've been using it ever since for all new projects.
Same holds true for Spring actually.  And where I could understand the drop back then, maven
or Spring can hardly be considered to be valid reasons not to use newer versions of Cocoon.
 

I think I can agree on two things:
C2.1 and C2.2 are pretty complete in what they have to offer.  They are also pretty well documented.
But most advanced users have moved to C2.2 or C3 and can't offer good support for the older
versions.  I guess it's the developers own responsibility to (NOT?) upgrade on a regular basis
and dealing with corresponding consequences of his choice.

C3 is already used in production and in my opinion easier to use.  The biggest problem is
it's still coined alpha.  We should really focus on getting c3 1.0 out which will give users
a more confident feeling API's won't break that easily.

Robby

-----Original Message-----
From: Bart Remmerie [mailto:remmerie@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 9:21 PM
To: users@cocoon.apache.org
Cc: users@cocoon.apache.org
Subject: Re: Is cocoon dead ?

Just being critical & analytical: where die we observe the big drop in community activity
?  Switch to Maven & move from 2.1.11 to next version ? (just a guess) => What can
we learn from this ?

Bart Remmerie

Op 11-nov.-2012 om 18:13 heeft Michael Müller <michael.mueller@mueller-bruehl.de> het
volgende geschreven:

> Francesco,
> 
> I observe this list for years now (since I started using Cocon 2.1). And I recongnized
some activities, especially from you. But since a couple of years I'm using a) a different
technology (JSF) for my web pages and b) I'm waiting for Cocoon 3.0 to become ready. Even
there are some acitivies, it seems to be a never ending story.
> 
> I guess it would be helpfull to schedule some dates for beta and release. If it is so
much to do right now, maybe this version might be feature-reduced and some of the planned
features will be postponed to a version 3.1? Otherwise I'm afraid this project is dead - even
though there are some activities.
> 
> If your horse is dead, don't try to ride it anymore. Change the horse. 
> (similar to Dakota saying)
> 
> Herzliche Grüße - Best Regards,
> Michael Müller
> 
> Am 10.11.2012 14:00, schrieb Francesco Chicchiriccò:
>> Hi all,
>> I think e-mails like the one below are not helpful at all.
>> 
>> First of all, even though most of critical aspects of our current 
>> situation are reported, some things are barely wrong:
>> 
>>> down the same page you find the next most recent news is a year and 
>>> a half old
>> Open your favorite browser at http://cocoon.apache.org/ and read that 
>> latest two news are dated July 2nd and March 3rd 2012
>> 
>>> When people ask about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) 
>>> nobody wants to talk about it (except others desperate for 
>>> information about some aspect of C2);
>> Just browse http://cocoon.markmail.org and judge by yourself whether 
>> this is true or not.
>> 
>>> There are no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
>> Just point again your favorite browser to 
>> http://www.apache.org/dist/cocoon/ and you will see that Cocoon 
>> 2.1.11 was released on Jan 14th 2008.
>> 
>>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal, and the
only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to complete it keep asking others to
do that.
>> This is absolutely false for C2.X and only partially true for C3.
>> 
>> Beware, I am not stating that the Cocoon status is healthy, new 
>> releases with bugfixes and new features are regularly made available 
>> and documentation is accurate and complete.
>> I am only trying to look at the Cocoon project for what it is 
>> *today*: a project with:
>>  * very few active committers
>>  * almost no occasional contributors
>>  * still a lot of interested people: most because they are running an 
>> ancient Cocoon version, few because they've heard of Cocoon only 
>> recently
>> 
>> In my opinion, a dead project is a project in which no one is 
>> interested, and Cocoon is not (yet?) that far.
>> 
>> Remembering that Cocoon - like as any other project at ASF - is 
>> exclusively made up by volunteer contribution, I'd rather start a 
>> [DISCUSS] thread to see what needs to be done and who is available to 
>> help instead of such acid and unproductive e-mails.
>> 
>> WDYT?
>> 
>> Regards.
>> 
>> On 08/11/2012 15:10, Mark H. Wood wrote:
>>> I'm not surprised at all.  Looking 3cm. down the same page you find 
>>> the next most recent news is a year and a half old.  When people ask 
>>> about C2.x (and the latest released version is 2.2) nobody wants to 
>>> talk about it (except others desperate for information about some 
>>> aspect of C2); one is told to use C3.  C3 has been alpha for perhaps 
>>> two years -- there is as yet no beta, let alone a release.  There 
>>> are no books on anything later than 2.1, which is about a decade old.
>>> Perhaps 80% of the official documentation is either TBW or skeletal, 
>>> and the only people who know the inside of Cocoon well enough to 
>>> complete it keep asking others to do that.  Bugs with patches 
>>> attached languish for years.  Seemingly everyone using Cocoon is 
>>> running a unique local version with scads of patches that are passed 
>>> around like ancient lore.
>>> 
>>> Why would anyone think Cocoon is dead?
> 
> 
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