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From <m...@digikartta.net>
Subject RE: Forms and maps
Date Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:42:02 GMT

 That's a good one!

 - mika -

 On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:30:58 +0200, Robby Pelssers 
 <Robby.Pelssers@nxp.com> wrote:
> You should read this article  'Why Good Programmers Are Lazy and
> Dumb'  http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2005-08-24-n14.html
>
> I think it's not so much about losing our jobs but about
> - trying to become more productive (getting more done in the same
> amount of time)
> - avoiding repetitive work
>
>
> The ones who do actually have more market value compared to their
> competitors.  So even from financial point of view there is a drive
> towards doing exactly the above.
>
> Why does Apple release a new iphone / ipad each year?   Because they
> have to keep generating a income...   That does not mean the previous
> products were of poor quality.
>
> Robby
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mika@digikartta.net [mailto:mika@digikartta.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 11:25 AM
> To: users@cocoon.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Forms and maps
>
>
>  Absolutely. But trying to stay on the edge of the trends won't fit 
> for
>  us all.
>  And continous rewriting of apps doesn't make any sense. Why on earth 
> we
>  can't create something that would last at least a decade?
>  Half of us would be out of jobs?
>
>  - mika -
>
>
>  On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:50:37 +0200, gelo1234 <gelo1234@gmail.com>
>  wrote:
>> I totally agree with Robby's opinion. The trend is to use HTML5 on
>> the client side in case of Web apps.
>>
>> Greetings,
>>  Greg
>> 18-04-2012 10:27, "Robby Pelssers"  napisał(a):
>>  Just my 2 cents on this topic...
>>
>>  Cocoon forms was at the time in my eyes a pretty awesome solution 
>> to
>> build highly dynamic forms with support for continuations. But as we
>> all know this puts considerable strain on the server side. 
>>  Gradually
>> we started seeing a tendency towards AJAX (XmlHttpRequests) which is
>> a
>> fancy word for:
>>  - no complete page refresh
>>  - partial re-rendering of page
>>  - only fetching the minimal amount of data
>>  - let the browser do the heavy lifting
>>
>>  This trend is evolving even further now with Websockets.
>>
>>  One could easily say that the same discussions hold for database
>> related technologies. Hibernate was the big revelation, a super
>> abstraction over RDBMS dialects.  It greatly reduces portability but
>> it just doesn't always do the right thing (e.g. performance wise) so
>> some people reverted back to plain jdbc wrappers.
>>
>>  XSP was very convenient but it allows developers to mix controller 
>> /
>> view which is now seen as a bad habit.
>>
>>  Avalon was the way forward to configure your components at the time
>> and next dependency injection became the most hyped buzzword. 
>>  Spring
>> framework and google juice came into play.
>>
>>  I guess it's a matter of taste and the willingness to move forward.
>>  All (web)frameworks and technologies move forward (willingly or
>> not):
>>  - new JDK
>>  - newer versions of dependencies
>>  - Ant --> maven
>>  - ...
>>
>>  Recently there were some rants against XSLT
>> (http://www.snoyman.com/blog/2012/04/xslt-rant.html [2] ).  Just try
>> transforming XML from your most favorite programming language and 
>> you
>> might be in for a surprise.  Surely XSLT takes a lot of typing but
>> also XSLT is evolving just as XQuery is.
>>
>>  I can only advise to take a good look around and find the best 
>> match
>> for your requirements.  If that is all about building dynamic forms
>> wicket might be a good fit.  Cocoon still is and certainly will be
>> for the near future the best choice for transforming XML.
>>
>>  Cheers,
>>  Robby
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: mika@digikartta.net [3] [mailto:mika@digikartta.net [4]]
>>  Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 7:58 AM
>>  To: users@cocoon.apache.org [5]
>>  Subject: Re: Forms and maps
>>
>>   Ciao Alberto,
>>   you'll probably right.
>>
>>   What comes to Cocoon lifecycle, I don't get it. Has C3 anything in
>>   common with C2 except the concept of pipelines? Can you do the
>> same
>>   things with it?
>>   When C2.2 was published, I fell off the wagon because of techical
>>   differences. C3 knocked me out for good. If you think of the user
>> coming
>>   from C2.1 environment who has get used to utilize flowscript,
>> templates,
>>   cforms, xsp etc and think of him/her trying to get accustomed in
>> C3, I
>>   think the least one can say is that he/she will be totally in a
>> faint.
>>
>>   I don't either get the eagerness for dumbing all the "good old"
>>   techiques and frameworks. Of course the general abandonment will
>> halt
>>   the development but if you think something like C2.1 and C2.2, I
>> guess
>>   they will be useful for years to go, if you are willing and
>> capable of
>>   updating some parts by your own.
>>
>>   cheers,
>>   - mika -
>>
>>   P.S. There are still several actors using C2.0..
>>
>>   On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:49:37 +0200, Alberto
>>   wrote:
>>  > On 04/13/2012 07:18 PM, Mika M Lehtonen wrote:
>>  >> Interesting,
>>  >> I am also integrating maps into sites produced with Cocoon 2.1x.
>> I
>>  >> have no answer to you but maybe we could collaborate on this
>> issue?
>>  >> OpenLayers widget would be something!
>>  >
>>  > Just some considerations.
>>  > I like very much cocoon, its philosophy, and the way to produce
>>  > application with it and especially with forms. But we must remain
>>  > realistic: in the last years the pace of the develop of cocoon is
>>  > slow
>>  > and the next release will be something different. For example, 
>> the
>>  > integration with Wicket seems to be the sign that forms will not
>> be
>>  > more
>>  > developed.
>>  > Due to the fact that I don't know how to develop a new widget for
>>  > cocoon, I was waiting for some clue or suggest to evaluate the
>> effort
>>  > needed.
>>  > Unfortunately I have not received any answer so I'm considering 
>> to
>>  > invest my time in another framework (Wicket) that can solve this
>> kind
>>  > problem and has a future more outlined.
>>  >
>>  > Ciao
>>  >
>>  > Alberto
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >>
>>  >> cheers,
>>  >> mika
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >> 13.4.2012 20:03, Alberto kirjoitti:
>>  >>> Hi,
>>  >>>
>>  >>> I'm using cocoon 2.1.12-dev and I'm facing how to include a map
>> in
>>  >>> cocoon forms.
>>  >>> I have to do simple things from flowscript: load a kml url and
>>  >>> receive
>>  >>> the coordinates of an area selection.
>>  >>> I'm considering to use OpenLayers or Google Maps. Looking
>> sources I
>>  >>> found already existing widget classes for GoogleMaps
>>  >>> (org.apache.cocoon.forms.formmodel.GoogleMap) but it is
>>  >>> undocumented and
>>  >>> using it I have the following error: "Non-existing component 
>> for
>>  >>> this
>>  >>> hint (Key='googlemap')". Moreover it seems it lacks methods to
>> load
>>  >>> a
>>  >>> kml file.
>>  >>>
>>  >>> So, which is the best way to do it? The googlemap widget is
>>  >>> working?
>>  >>> I have to write a new widget following the document
>>  >>> http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/CocoonFormsCreatingWidgets [7]?
>>  >>>
>>  >>> Any suggest is welcome
>>  >>>
>>  >>> Best regards
>>  >>>
>>  >>> Alberto
>>  >>>
>>  >>>
>>  >>>
>>  >>>
>>  >>>
>> 
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>>  >>>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>> 
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>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>> 
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>>
>>
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1] mailto:Robby.Pelssers@nxp.com
>> [2] http://www.snoyman.com/blog/2012/04/xslt-rant.html
>> [3] mailto:mika@digikartta.net
>> [4] mailto:mika@digikartta.net
>> [5] mailto:users@cocoon.apache.org
>> [6] mailto:abrosich@ogs.trieste.it
>> [7] http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/CocoonFormsCreatingWidgets
>> [8] mailto:users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
>> [9] mailto:users-help@cocoon.apache.org
>> [10] mailto:users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
>> [11] mailto:users-help@cocoon.apache.org
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