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From Ken Starks <...@lampsacos.demon.co.uk>
Subject Re: RCL. Help needed with the rapid class reloader
Date Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:59:03 GMT
Torsten Curdt wrote:
> Let's take a +++++++++ here first.
>
>> My patience is also running out. Firstly, concerning your anger that 
>> I 'cannot get my Eclipse setup yo work properly',
>> may I remind you that it was you who steered me down the eclipse path 
>> while I wished to see things working
>> from a command-line approach. Actually, now that you have told me 
>> that RCL works on
>> target *.class files, I had it working already. (see an earlier post).
>
> It was working when you manually compiled. Which basically supports 
> the conclusion that it is your Eclipse setup that is not working.
> While I do hear you that java should be more "scripting" the gained 
> benefit is disproportional to the complexity ...if you just get the 
> incremental compilation working in Eclipse it pretty much feels the 
> same. (It's so straight forward that I am baffled you have so many 
> problems)
>
>> As I also mentioned, I have not yet seen it respond to an edit of 
>> ..target/.../demo-application-context.xml, which
>> which Grzegorz Kossakowski demonstrated in his screencast. That is 
>> why I thought there was still a problem
>> with RCL.
>
> I can't say anything about Grzegorz's setup. I was just trying to help 
> you get the class reloading working. Not sure about the spring 
> reloading. Grzegorz can you fill in here?
>
>> But the deeper reason that my patience is running out--with the 
>> Cocoon team as a whole, not you in particular--is
>> because of the higher and higher entry barriers that potential users 
>> of Cocoon need to  cross. The whole ethos
>> of the project is 'separation of concerns', so it should strive to be 
>> appealing to a much larger constituency than
>> java programmers.
>>
>> As cocoon 2.2 stands, and the way it seems to be moving, you are 
>> unwelcome unless you have already learned
>> java, eclipse, and maven. Of course you _should_ be unwelcome, in 
>> that case, to the _developer's_ group
>> or mailing list. Nearly everyone should be very welcome indeed to 
>> become an ordinary user.
>>
>> What about the ordinary developer who wants a dynamic website, but 
>> who is a specialism is XML,
>> XSL,  SQL, CSS,  Javascript, or  Graphic design? or audio or video ?
>> They cannot join in with any confidence, unless they have a java 
>> expert, a maven expert, an eclipse expert
>> to run to.
>>
>> Or, a friendly user-group, and a friendly wiki with tutorials and  
>> screencasts at all levels, where they won't
>> get either a flea in the ear or sarcasm.
>>
>> I am one of those non-java-speaking developers, and my area of 
>> expertise is in training and education. I
>> already like cocoon, so you are preaching to the converted.
>
> Ken, Cocoon is complex. If you want to use something complex you need 
> to learn the required skills. Coming from an educational background - 
> who should know better than you? You can't fly a plane if you don't 
> have the skills. Hell, why do you want java class reloading if you 
> aren't a java programmer in the first place? 
Possibly I don't ! But as it is part of the 'your first cocoon 
application' tutorial, I feel an implication that I ought to. 

> While I am totally with you that documentation is sparse at best, it 
> is a bit weird to assume that this will get you all the skills you 
> need. I think we all settled on the fact that Cocoon is not for the 
> average tiny web site. And if you build bigger projects I don't think 
> that the required skills are too much to ask. (In fact in my book the 
> ordinary developers has those skills.)
>
You might find it weird, but the fact is that Cocoon 2.1 is one of the 
best environments in the world for acquiring basic skills in XML, XSL,
CSS, SQL, XSL-FO, JavaScript, .... and more.  You can start with a 
complete working project (such as one of the samples) and because
it is so cleanly modular you can focus on one part at a time.

As for it not being for the 'average tiny website', I mostly agree, but 
even if the website consists entirely of static pages, cocoon is
jolly good at creating them, and at presenting a few options to the client.
> I am not quite sure where you got all the "unwelcome" and "sarcasm" 
> from but Cocoon is one of the most welcoming communities there is. It 
> always has been. You are asking for help here. People spend their own 
> time trying to help you. But you also have to help yourself a bit. We 
> are not here to walk you through getting started with Eclipse. The 
> required knowledge by far is no expert knowledge.
>
> Come back to this thread when 
... this thread is finished. You made a correct diagnosis. Job done. 
Thanks very much. I am sure I shall be able to sort out Eclipse, a
product I enjoy ( Ok that is for my python programming mostly ! )

> you have found the folder where your Eclipse installation is writing 
> the .class files to. Point the RCL to it. If you then still have 
> problems we are of course here to help you. But insulting the community 
... no intention. and I hope there was no intention on your part to 
insult me, but that is how it came across.

> just because you feel frustrated is really not appropriate. That said 
> - you are much welcome to improve the documentation once you got this 
> working. In the end that's how this whole open source thing works.
>
I agree completely. It is well known that many programmers hate to write 
documentation for each other, let alone for the end user. I,
however, enjoy it -- so the cocoon project (with its admitted sparsity 
of documentation) needs people like me; I just need a
technical reviewer to ensure I am not talking rubbish.

> cheers
> -- 
> Torsten
>
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>
>
P.S. Sorry not to reply a bit earlier. I could see a reply to this 
message but not this message itself, which my mail programme had
classified as junk. I think it must have been offended by the a 
completely inoffensive phrase (deleted above).

Bye for now,
Ken.

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