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From Torsten Curdt <tcu...@apache.org>
Subject Re: RCL. Help needed with the rapid class reloader
Date Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:25:33 GMT
Let's take a deep breath here first.

> My patience is also running out. Firstly, concerning your anger that  
> I 'cannot get my Eclipse setup yo work properly',
> may I remind you that it was you who steered me down the eclipse  
> path while I wished to see things working
> from a command-line approach. Actually, now that you have told me  
> that RCL works on
> target *.class files, I had it working already. (see an earlier post).

It was working when you manually compiled. Which basically supports  
the conclusion that it is your Eclipse setup that is not working.
While I do hear you that java should be more "scripting" the gained  
benefit is disproportional to the complexity ...if you just get the  
incremental compilation working in Eclipse it pretty much feels the  
same. (It's so straight forward that I am baffled you have so many  
problems)

> As I also mentioned, I have not yet seen it respond to an edit  
> of ..target/.../demo-application-context.xml, which
> which Grzegorz Kossakowski demonstrated in his screencast. That is  
> why I thought there was still a problem
> with RCL.

I can't say anything about Grzegorz's setup. I was just trying to help  
you get the class reloading working. Not sure about the spring  
reloading. Grzegorz can you fill in here?

> But the deeper reason that my patience is running out--with the  
> Cocoon team as a whole, not you in particular--is
> because of the higher and higher entry barriers that potential users  
> of Cocoon need to  cross. The whole ethos
> of the project is 'separation of concerns', so it should strive to  
> be appealing to a much larger constituency than
> java programmers.
>
> As cocoon 2.2 stands, and the way it seems to be moving, you are  
> unwelcome unless you have already learned
> java, eclipse, and maven. Of course you _should_ be unwelcome, in  
> that case, to the _developer's_ group
> or mailing list. Nearly everyone should be very welcome indeed to  
> become an ordinary user.
>
> What about the ordinary developer who wants a dynamic website, but  
> who is a specialism is XML,
> XSL,  SQL, CSS,  Javascript, or  Graphic design? or audio or video ?
> They cannot join in with any confidence, unless they have a java  
> expert, a maven expert, an eclipse expert
> to run to.
>
> Or, a friendly user-group, and a friendly wiki with tutorials and   
> screencasts at all levels, where they won't
> get either a flea in the ear or sarcasm.
>
> I am one of those non-java-speaking developers, and my area of  
> expertise is in training and education. I
> already like cocoon, so you are preaching to the converted.

Ken, Cocoon is complex. If you want to use something complex you need  
to learn the required skills. Coming from an educational background -  
who should know better than you? You can't fly a plane if you don't  
have the skills. Hell, why do you want java class reloading if you  
aren't a java programmer in the first place? While I am totally with  
you that documentation is sparse at best, it is a bit weird to assume  
that this will get you all the skills you need. I think we all settled  
on the fact that Cocoon is not for the average tiny web site. And if  
you build bigger projects I don't think that the required skills are  
too much to ask. (In fact in my book the ordinary developers has those  
skills.)

I am not quite sure where you got all the "unwelcome" and "sarcasm"  
from but Cocoon is one of the most welcoming communities there is. It  
always has been. You are asking for help here. People spend their own  
time trying to help you. But you also have to help yourself a bit. We  
are not here to walk you through getting started with Eclipse. The  
required knowledge by far is no expert knowledge.

Come back to this thread when you have found the folder where your  
Eclipse installation is writing the .class files to. Point the RCL to  
it. If you then still have problems we are of course here to help you.  
But insulting the community just because you feel frustrated is really  
not appropriate. That said - you are much welcome to improve the  
documentation once you got this working. In the end that's how this  
whole open source thing works.

cheers
--
Torsten

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