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From Askild Aaberg Olsen <ask...@xangeli.com>
Subject Re: AW: CForms and Modular Database Actions
Date Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:17:12 GMT
Harse, patronizing and true words.
But application complexity was not the issue here...

Askild

WHIRLYCOTT wrote:

> It seems highly unlikely to me that someone who cannot master the 
> important parts of a modern java application will be able to develop 
> applications that will scale in complexity as the application 
> requirements increase.
>
> If you think that java is overly complex, building a layer on top of 
> it based on XML, XSLT, SQL Transformer and JX is not the right 
> answer!  The debugging problems alone are making me shiver.
>
> phil.
>
> Askild Aaberg Olsen wrote:
>
>> Yes, Derek, I have followed the discussion with great interest, but 
>> not participated myself. It seams like reason has won, and someone 
>> even tries to enhance the current XSP-block! 0:-)
>>
>> As a side note here, look at <?a=93967486800002&r=1&w=2>
>> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=110848544625231&w=2
>> where Stefano Mazzocchi writes about the two "camps" on the dev-list. 
>> <?a=93967486800002&r=1&w=2>
>>
>>
>> A simple db-webapp with Flow/CForms and SQL  *could* be as follows:
>>
>> * Use one pipeline with the SQL-transformer to generate an 
>> XML-document from the DB.
>> * Bind this document to the Form (load)
>> * When the document is edited (save), inject the document to another 
>> pipeline with JX, using XSLT and SQL-transformer to update the DB.
>>
>> Reading and "writing" the bound XML from and to pipelines makes the 
>> implementation transparent to Flow and CForms, so substituting the 
>> implementation is easy (we use our own XDB based on SQL instead of 
>> SQL-statements, but the principle is the same).
>>
>> Just a tip in the "right" direction... ;-)
>>
>> Askild
>> -
>>
>> Derek Hohls wrote:
>>
>>> Askild
>>>
>>> My skills are similar to yours... but, I have not seen any documents 
>>> or examples that deal with the creation of a full-fledged DB app 
>>> that only uses  XSLT, XML, SQL-transformer and Flow/CForms.  I'd be 
>>> very happy if you can point me in the
>>> right direction.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> P.S.  XSP is *not* deprecated (see other threads for this).
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>>>> askild@xangeli.com 2005/06/14 12:34:26 PM >>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Derek Hohls wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> Ok; that is one viewpoint.  But I think these quotes from the Wiki:
>>>> http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/GettingStartedWithCocoonAndHibernate 
>>>> are also pertinent:
>>>>
>>>> "Be aware that you will not be ready to write Hibernate-based 
>>>> applications in 5 minutes. You are about to venture into a complex 
>>>> topic. Sit back, get a cup of tea and prepare for some **days** of 
>>>> reading and learning. The following skills are mandatory: You need 
>>>> to be proficient in Java..."
>>>>
>>>> I did spend a fair chunk of last year downloading and days reading 
>>>> through the Hibernate documents - they do seem fairly comprehensive 
>>>> and well-written... but they are not simple or straightforward.  
>>>> And for
>>>> someone like myself, with skills in XML, XSLT, Javascript, SQL... 
>>>> all of
>>>> which have been more than sufficient to develop webapps with Cocoon 
>>>> over
>>>> the past few - the add-in of high-level Java skills to the mix is a 
>>>> really "gotcha" that significantly raises the learning barrier here.
>>>>
>>>> So to rephrase my original point - is this the only way to develop 
>>>> interactive
>>>> database webapps with Cocoon - or should PHP start looking like an 
>>>> attractive option once more?!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>
>>>
>>> It's the "only" way if your skills are in Java only... ;-)
>>>
>>> The Cocoon-community seems divided in two different camps; one that 
>>> use it as a Java-development framework, and another that uses it as 
>>> an XML-development framework.
>>>
>>> I myself belong to the second, using only XML, XSLT, transformers 
>>> (e.g. SQL), XSP (e.q. ESQL) and Flow. A lot of people will point my 
>>> finger at me shouting "bad practice", XSP is deprecated! The 
>>> original idea behind XSP was to have an efficient way to 
>>> prototype/script generators, but having been misused for "control" 
>>> in the MVC-pattern, some looks at XSP itself as bad design...
>>>
>>> So, sitemaps, XSLT, XML, SQL-transformer and optionaly Flow will get 
>>> you a long way to develop yout interactive database wepabb. Used in 
>>> the right manner, it works - brilliantly!
>>>
>>> In the end it's your ability to design a good architechture that 
>>> saves the day, not a lot of fancy tools and frameworks.
>>>
>>> Askild
>>> -
>>>
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>>>
>>>  
>>>
>
>
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