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From beyaNet <and...@jibeya.com>
Subject Re: [OT] This is quite disappointing...
Date Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:32:44 GMT
Chaps,
I have asked this question before, and i'm going to again, if we have 
flow/jxt why xsp? If I was a new user what I would wanted see is fir 
direction as to which architecture to use within cocoon and why. When I 
first started using cocoon i used xsp as that was what I saw in all the 
documentation, until I discovered flow/jxt, and then thought well why I 
have I been doing that to myself!

To bring this technology into 70% struts commercial market, issues like 
MVC and the like need to be brought to the for, and I can't see where 
xsp stands in all this.

my 2 rupees
On 11 Nov 2004, at 06:17, Derek Hohls wrote:

> Brent
>
> Sure.  Even good documentation will never substitute for being
> able to ask a "guru" and, as I said originally, the Cocoon community
> is one of its key strengths.  Its just that to get people over the
> initial learning hurdle takes guidance; and most of us are prepared
> to "self learn" with a reasonable level of written material.
>
> I agree that part of the revised docs could/should be a FAQ; not
> too hard to do if you are prepared to wade through past archives!
>
> One of the subjects I would like to see addressed, and it does come
> up quite often,  is a comprehensive guide to "Variables in the Cocoon
> Environment".  There are a multitude of places where variable data
> can be stored and manipulated (XSP, XSLT, Flow, Sitemap, Java etc.)
> and passing data around an application can be just as hairy.  This is
> a topic which cuts across a number of others and, for that reason,
> would give quite a good perspective on the "inner workings" of Cocoon
> as well as being helpful on where and how to deal with data.
>
> My 2 too.
>
>>>> bljohnson@gmail.com 2004/11/10 04:52:43 PM >>>
> Maybe there is one and Ive just never found it.  But a Cocoon forum
> would be pretty helpful.  Sure this list is great.. and most people on
> it are very helpful.  It'd be nice to have an archive of helpful
> answers, stickyable topics, forum categories, etc.  I realize
> marc.theaimsgroup.com mailing list searches are fairly helpful.. but a
> forum would be much nicer.
>
> Sure there could stand to be more documentation.. but I found when I
> was learning how to use Hibernate I frequently searched their forums
> for more obscure questions/answers than reviewing the documentation.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> - Brent
>
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:45:16 +0200, Derek Hohls <dhohls@csir.co.za>
> wrote:
>> Ralph
>>
>> Yup.  I am not envious of any other open source package
>> ito community support and the intrinsic capability of the system
>> but I if had the odd, spare $10k or even $100k lying around
>> the first thing I would do is offer to hire some people (tech expert
>> + writer/editor) to redo all the documents; including the main
>> website and wiki.  Plus produce a high quality "getting going" guide
>> (such as the one that projects like Hibernate has.)
>>
>> I can dream, right?
>>
>> Derek
>>
>> PS Yes, in theory, the above could be done by the community,
>> but in practice some old-fashioned, top-down, focussed effort is
>> actually what it takes to get something like this together.
>>
>>>>> Ralph.Goers@dslextreme.com 2004/11/10 08:54:17 AM >>>
>>
>>
>> Derek Hohls wrote:
>>
>>> I guess my 2c is that I do think Cocoon remains obscure.  There
>>> seem to be lots of people doing lots of good things with it, but
>>> its never promoted [read - not discussed, written about, in forums
>>> outside of Cocoon groups, where others could sit up and take
>>> notice].  It is a chicken-and-egg situation... but these things can
>>> be changed.
>>>
>> My $.02.
>>
>> My experience with everyone who is now using Cocoon in our
> organization
>>
>> has gone something like this:
>>
>> 1. I already know Struts (and JSPs)...
>> 2. It's too complicated.
>> 3. The documentation is bad. The published books are old and don't
>> cover
>> the current release.
>> 4. Wow. It does that?!
>> 5. This is really ccol!
>>
>> Obviously, getting past 1, 2 and 3 are the hard part, with 1 and 2
>> being
>> the worst. The irony is that the solution, IMO, is number 3.  Cocoon
>> needs better documentation, more published articles, and better
>> documentation.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
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