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From "Ralph Goers" <Ralph.Go...@dslextreme.com>
Subject Re: Fundamental Cocoon Philosophy Question
Date Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:42:19 GMT
See my comments below.


Julian said:
> Hi,
>
> As far as standards are concerned, I am speaking of
> the forms implementation.  I remember at one point it
> was being built around XForms before that was
> scrapped.  Now however groups are working on adopting
> that as a standard for webapps:
> http://www.mozilla.org/press/mozilla-2004-08-10.html

>>From the discussions I saw, the problem with XForms is that it is client
based. Cocoon is server based.  While mozilla supports it I don't believe
IE does.

> On top of that, the forms implemenation, I think, is
> the third such implementation in the Cocoon project
> (the other were deprecated).  Now I also hear about
> JSF as well as JSR-168 implementation.

JSR 168 is the portlet spec.  This has nothing to do with forms.  And, by
the way, Cocoon probably supports this as well as any portal.

 I think in
> order to feel comfortable adopting these
> implementations, I need to believe they won't be
> scrapped and that there is unifying model/philosophy
> behind where/what Cocoon will become as it further
> matures.  Perhaps many of these projects should be
> spun out of Cocoon into subprojects rather than
> calling them blocks....akin to the Lenya app.

Well.... While I agree Cocoon is big and difficult to learn, I believe
Cocoon is a presentation framework (i.e. the VC in MVC). It is hard to
imagine such a thing without some way to do forms.

 **As it
> stands the Cocoon project is becoming too big and
> confusing as to what it really is.**  This is a burden
> for neophytes.  From the site's from page:
>
> "The Apache Cocoon Project is the open source
> community project developing Apache Cocoon and
> Cocoon-based application frameworks."
>
> I can accept this, but where is the division that
> creates consumable parts?

What division are you speaking of?  The developers recognize that Cocoon
needs to allow dynamic loading of "blocks" and are actively working on
that.  Or maybe that isn't what you meant.

>
> However, you are correct...standards is not what
> matters most.  I accept "industry standards" b/c of
> wide ranging 3rd party support (e.g. servlet 2.3 spec)
> and/or clear advantages of one "platform" over
> another.
>
> Finally, running an app written mostly in xml makes me
> shake in my boots.  I think Cocoon is great, but
> sometimes too much emphasis seems to be put into XML.

Why?  (BTW - Cocoon doesn't really run on XML. It runs on SAX events). 
This "feature", in my mind, is one of its greatest strengths as I find I
can customize almost anything.

> I hope this helps rather than sounding like endless
> ramblings.  If it is the latter, please accept my
> apologies, but I fear that Cocoon is outgrowing the
> garden.
>
> HTH,
> -Julian


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