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From Julian <>
Subject Re: Fundamental Cocoon Philosophy Question
Date Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:25:41 GMT

As far as standards are concerned, I am speaking of
the forms implementation.  I remember at one point it
was being built around XForms before that was
scrapped.  Now however groups are working on adopting
that as a standard for webapps:
On top of that, the forms implemenation, I think, is
the third such implementation in the Cocoon project
(the other were deprecated).  Now I also hear about
JSF as well as JSR-168 implementation.  I think in
order to feel comfortable adopting these
implementations, I need to believe they won't be
scrapped and that there is unifying model/philosophy
behind where/what Cocoon will become as it further
matures.  Perhaps many of these projects should be
spun out of Cocoon into subprojects rather than
calling them blocks....akin to the Lenya app.  **As it
stands the Cocoon project is becoming too big and
confusing as to what it really is.**  This is a burden
for neophytes.  From the site's from page:

"The Apache Cocoon Project is the open source
community project developing Apache Cocoon and
Cocoon-based application frameworks."

I can accept this, but where is the division that
creates consumable parts?

However, you are correct...standards is not what
matters most.  I accept "industry standards" b/c of
wide ranging 3rd party support (e.g. servlet 2.3 spec)
and/or clear advantages of one "platform" over

Finally, running an app written mostly in xml makes me
shake in my boots.  I think Cocoon is great, but
sometimes too much emphasis seems to be put into XML. 
I hope this helps rather than sounding like endless
ramblings.  If it is the latter, please accept my
apologies, but I fear that Cocoon is outgrowing the


--- Derek Hohls <> wrote:

> Julian
> A quick question here before the debate goes
> further;
> what do you mean by "standards" ??  Cocoon is based
> on Java and XML; the former an "industry standard"
> (of 
> sorts) and the latter an open standard.  In other
> words,
> Cocoon *is* built on a Java framework - maybe a
> different
> one from Struts...but there is the power of choice
> for you!
> You are not forced to adopt CForms if you adopt
> Cocoon;
> there was a recent article about using JSF
> instead... of course
> whether you think JSF is a "standard" is also open
> to debate!
> but, conversely, I am not clear why you think Struts
> is 
> any better at "standards compliance"...
> 2c
> Derek
> >>> 2004/09/10 04:16:55 PM >>>
> Hi All,
> The basic question here is why not have a webapp
> framework that supports both xml forms (CForms) and
> a
> java framework similiar to Struts?  Moreover, is it
> not true that having a simple Java framework as such
> would be the building blocks from which CForms can
> be/is built upon?  IMHO, this would give developers
> the freedom of choice when deciding upon Cocoon as a
> webapp framework versus Struts (or others).
> Reasoning:
> I currently have Cocoon, but find myself being
> disenfranchised.  I love its power for easily
> creating
> pipelines and xml processing for publishing. 
> However,
> I am looking for a webapp framework to build upon. 
> I
> am not to happy with the idea of adopting CForms in
> order to achieve a better seperation of concerns. 
> Also I am not willing to use XSP and actionsets.  I
> am
> weary of implementing an enterprise app in (almost)
> pure xml with a forms system that is not based on
> standards.  For me, writing an app in Java with some
> XML that easily runs with the J2EE spec is much more
> appealing.
>   I am writing this in hopes of hearing ideas to
> stay
> with Cocoon.  This is not a troll nor am I one .
> Thanks,
> Julian
> =====
> Live simply so others may simply live. 
> -Ghandi 
> Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate.
> "Entities should not be multiplied unneccesarily" 
> -William of Occam
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Live simply so others may simply live. 
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate.
"Entities should not be multiplied unneccesarily" 
-William of Occam

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