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From "Derek Hohls" <>
Subject Re: Better alternative to ESQL?
Date Tue, 04 May 2004 07:16:08 GMT

I agree that if what works for you is OK, then you
are doing fine.  My concern is that there are better ways 
evolving and, if they are "easy and clean",  I am prepared
to learn them but, and this is my case in a number of threads
(and you have effectively said the same thing here), if this
approach is a limited to a "few in the know" and there is not
sufficient info for others to "get in the know", how can we
evolve as a community of developers with a *potentially* 
really good product?

See Point 6 of:


>>> 2004/05/03 06:50:10 PM >>>
Hi Christopher,

the better combination seems to be flowscript + woody + O/R
with O/R to be either Hibernate or OJB.

There are some examples in the Wiki. Unfortunately, I find the 
combination neither
very clean nor easy to learn, though experienced users vouch it is both

easy and

I think you could look at the JXT or XSP thread, or to the flowscript 
thread on
the devel group. There was a discussion on this subject not too long

On the other hand, I fully agree with you that you do not need to
a winning team;
being aware (and knowing what it does) of the winning team to be is I 
think sufficient.

Christopher Painter-Wakefield wrote:

>FWIW, that conversation did not include everyone using Cocoon and/or
>reading the list.  It may be that the folks joining in the
>were those with similar approaches.
>My attitude is the best tool for the job is the one that meets your
>Since many of the tools recently mentioned were not available 1-2
>ago, we developed a lot of our own designs to tackle the same sorts
>problems in our environment.  We make heavy use of XSP, logicsheets,
>ESQL.  At this point our designs are pretty mature and, of course, are
>custom fit for our needs.
>If you have established software that is working, you probably have a
>idea where the most "pain" is - where the code is difficult to modify
>extend, where you spend the most time, etc.  Or you may be adding new
>features with very different requirements than before.  In these
cases, it
>is probably worth examining the new tools to see if they offer a
>to your particular problems.  Otherwise, if it ain't broke....  In
>case, I am interested in some of the tools that help with forms and
>validation, which is an area we are very weak on, so I may examine
these in
>the future.  However, on site navigation, layouting, etc., I feel our
>designs are working very well, so I probably won't look for something
>Here's my vote for XSP:  it is general-purpose, powerful, flexible,
>extensible (with all of Java available to you).  It doesn't solve a
>specific problem, but it can be used to solve almost any problem.
>|         |           "Derek Hohls"    |
>|         |           <| 
>|         |           a>               |
>|         |                            |
>|         |           05/03/2004 07:28 |
>|         |           AM               |
>|         |           Please respond to|
>|         |           users            |
>|         |                            |
>  |                                                                   
>  |       To:       <>                         
>  |       cc:                                                         
>  |       Subject:  Better alternative to ESQL?                       
>There seems to be a very a strong "current of opinion" on the list at
>present (April 2004) saying that XSP is not really a suitable
>of a "well archictectured" Cocoon application.  My major use of it
>been in the development of complex database reporting systems; using
>ESQL for the bulk of the work and adding in Java code to do any
>necessary non-SQL calculations.
>If the use of XSP (and, therefore, I assume, ESQL) is not espoused
>longer, what is the "equivalent but better" methodology for tackling
>this type of work, and where is/are the corresponding examples/docs
>the Cocoon sites?
>PS Yes, I have looked at XReporter...
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