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From Leon Widdershoven <...@dds.nl>
Subject Re: Vote: to unify, or not to unify - results
Date Wed, 05 May 2004 21:16:14 GMT
JD Daniels wrote:

> Derek:
>
> Short answer: I'm Hiding from it. heh heh. I have a project now that 
> is a month overdue because I tried to jump on the woody --> Cforms 
> bandwagon. I am just not Java literate enough.  I came from php...  it 
> is the separation of content and logic that made me move to cocoon 
> initially. xsps are used strictly to produce xml data. thats why i 
> came here. the prospect of sax in php was too much for me. My Ideal 
> development would be:
>
> Java Object --> Methods to add, remove, edit things
>
> Flow --> Tells the java objects what to do
>
> Cforms --> The end user's tool to tell the flow what they want to do
>
> JXTemplate --> Cform's method of showing the end user the options
>
>
> What is stopping me from this utopia of web development is:
>
> PHP:
>
> switch ($formitems)
> {
>   case count($formitems)>1:
>      $itemids=implode("','",$formitems);
>      break;
>
>   case count($formitems)==1:
>      $itemids=$formitems["0"];
>      break;
>
>   default:
>      break;
>
> }
>
> $whereclause="WHERE lid IN ('$lid')";
>
> Java:
>
> Huh? switches only work for booleans??
> There's how many types of arrays?? (But arrays don't exist? why is a 
> list different from a collection?)
>
A switch works on integer numbers, an if statement works on boolean values.
There is only one Array type; there are zillions of arrays of other 
classes, eg String[] which are of type "Array of Strings".
A List is not different from a collection, it is part of the Collections 
framework like Map and Set.

If you're really going to use Java, I'd suggest a book on Java. 
Personally I think Core Java Fundamentals by
Horstmann and Cornell is good, but you're milage may vary:)

> Now the first step of my utopia is a nightmare.
> I can use xsp to use esql... which 98% of my stuff is merely viewing 
> results from databases, so I can continue with my life while I try to 
> learn java.
>
> I think most of these types of comments come from PHP users like me...
>
> When I first set myself down to play with a web site, dogpile (before 
> google's time :P) put me onto a devshed article on php. so I says to 
> myself : "Self, there must be an easier way to send an email from this 
> form." go to php.net, type in "mail" in the function search box... 
> five minutes later you are emailing. Say, MYSQL only like dates in a 
> certain format. go search, get  the date function your done.

In the sitemap the sendmail action, otherwise the Java Mail Api 
(available at SUN).

> The next step:
>
> I decide I love making things for people. I love watching front office 
> staff beam when I remove 2/3 of their paperwork.
> I like watching a manager's face when he can get a summary of what his 
> company's status is at the the push of a button.
>
> Time to step it up a notch. I go to a real estate office. Sit there 
> for a few days, make notes, get a big list of how to make them more 
> efficient. The result is a really good product. They love it. 
> Generates excellent money for me and my family.
>
> It is almost 8000 lines of php. Content and logic all mixed up. About 
> 4 months in, they wanted a change. simple change really, but finding 
> the spot and making the change to the 27 different places it was 
> displayed in 9 different templates really, really was not fun.
>
> So I start the search for a "perfect" template system. I discover XML 
> + XSLT wow. straight data files I can format any way I want. This is 
> where cocoon comes in. I don't worry about separating content and 
> logic. It just happens by itself. but I have gone from fast logic 
> development and horrible maintainence to super easy maintainence and a 
> nightmare of logic development.
>
> Sigh
>
>
> I think that what people who are asking for "best practices", or 
> "better documentation" are php converts who miss the simple days of  " 
> how do I do this? " and having an answer in minutes. The way i feel 
> about the documention is I imagine searching php.net for the date 
> function and getting a result that says " Yup we do that 5 different 
> ways. Enjoy!" Very impressive, but I'm still stuck. *grin* But we all 
> know that cocoon is not like that. It never will be. PHP is like that 
> because it is a shortcut language to a bigger language. Cocoon is a 
> framework where anything is possible. I think what the docs need is 
> some good pointers to java development. answer questions like "Why 
> should I use a bean?", "Compile your bean, put it here, and use in 
> your flowscript this way"

Compile a class, put it in your cocoon/WEB-INF/lib, restart your 
container, and you can access it.

> And of course the point of this big rant:
>
> People will follow the easiest path. XSP can function like PHP. I dont 
> think it is right, but it happens. I myself do not have much in the 
> way of logic in my xsp, just esql queries. You'd think that select 
> only queries would be fine, but.. well... when faced with changing a 
> few lines to say UPDATE or INSERT from SELECT vs. learning how to make 
> a java bean, get a handle on it in flow, and passing the result to 
> JXTemplate.... um yeah I'm using xsp for DB updates. I dont want to, 
> but I really get my arse confused trying to make sense of javadocs. 
> Plus, from php.. edit->save->reload=ok that works to java .. edit, 
> compile, upload, reload container, reload page... I know its bad, but 
> I'm lazy 8-)

That's what I feel too. I know it;s possible, but the Wiki generally has 
an XSP example for just my case, and no flowscript example. It's a 
bugger but such is life:)

If there comes a time I actually have spare time, I want to UPDATE my 
skillset SELECT * FROM cocoon. But not yet.


>
> Probably should shut up now :P
>
> JD
>


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