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From gou...@osmosis.gr
Subject RE: Cocoon activity
Date Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:36:29 GMT

i tottaly agree with you

a "cocoon cook book" web site with 
small (common) problems (reciepes)
and the example code will be a great place for beginners

--stavros 
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, JD Daniels wrote:

> Agreed. I am still java illiterate.. I get lost when I try to track an
> exception down, and find a three line .java file :S
> 
> Using Cocoon -has- been a very difficult proccess. But for sure, I am almost
> excited when someone wants something new in something I have that runs under
> cocoon. With any of my php apps, I physically cringe when they ask me if
> they can have and email sent from some page or the other. I can do a lot of
> stuff very fast with php.. I have my own template system and code library I
> have built up over the years. But OMG it has become a "ok its done, thats
> what ya get" Kind of development... its just too messy.
> 
> I think just the basic xsl transformations are enough to get new users.
> Thats how I found cocoon. It was only after that I had a DUH moment and
> realized my apps would be much easier to maintain and develop under cocoon.
> 
> I really think that XSP + XSL stylesheets have the capability to knock php
> right out of the running. The only reason it hasn't Is php.net's function
> search. If you want to attract new people, push the simple stuff... in less
> than 200kb, an entire guestbook package can be built. I don't mean to
> trivialize cocoon, becuase it is meant for large scale applications, but new
> people want to see simple.
> 
> For example... a newbie to php want's to send an email.. he goes to php.net,
> punches in 'mail' and now he has whole function reference with a discussion
> thread. Now for cocoon, if the mail sample had a configuration file, and a
> meat xsp, and all they had to do was drop the mail folder in thier app
> folder, and apply thier own xsl, I think we would keep that new guy.
> 
> I'm trying for an idea here - PHP is popular because hosting providers make
> it available. The first time I installed and configured PHP by myself was
> ten times worse than the cocoon build. Ant kicks make's butt up and down the
> street. The way to get hosting providers interested in it is to get demand
> up. The way to get demand up is flashy easy stuff. Which is as simple as
> guestbooks, page counters, etc that can be used out-of the box. I guess my
> point is that *cocoon* - what it is, how it works isn't what needs to
> attract new people, its all in the samples! That will keep them going
> through the "Cocoon Frosh Week"
> 
> 
> JD
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jorg Heymans [mailto:jh@domek.be]
> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 8:00 AM
> To: users@cocoon.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Cocoon activity
> 
> 
> exactly my thoughts !
> 
> those people who hang in there and push through those first difficult
> days/weeks never look back. Though i'm unsure how many get lost during
> those first days and give up.
> 
> maybe the total skillset needed to get a grasp on cocoon is just too
> much for less experienced, dunno
> 
> but then again who said cocoon is for beginning web developers (at the
> moment)...
> 
> jorg
> 
> gounis@osmosis.gr wrote:
> 
> > the truth is that cocoon is not (beginners-dev)-friendly
> > because many parameters (the pipeline-approach, missing IDE, less debug
> > tools)
> >
> > after 2 years here and with cocoon in production from the first 2.0rc is
> > still difficult for me to do something without to see an example.
> >
> > .. but i like cocoon and believe in cocoon power (thats the reason i'm
> > here)
> >
> >
> > --stavros
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Alexander Schatten wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>the whole discussion over the last weeks ist turning around that point,
> >>>that most believe, that Cocoon offers a lot of oportunities particularly
> >>>also for beginners, but some (including me) are arguing against the
> >>>deployment as beeing user-unfriendly, hence alienating many beginners.
> >>>
> >>
> >>I might sound like a rogue, but if you have an itch, scratch it!
> >>
> >>Carsten
> >>
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