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From "JD Daniels">
Subject RE: Cocoon activity
Date Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:28:59 GMT
Agreed. I am still java illiterate.. I get lost when I try to track an
exception down, and find a three line .java file :S

Using Cocoon -has- been a very difficult proccess. But for sure, I am almost
excited when someone wants something new in something I have that runs under
cocoon. With any of my php apps, I physically cringe when they ask me if
they can have and email sent from some page or the other. I can do a lot of
stuff very fast with php.. I have my own template system and code library I
have built up over the years. But OMG it has become a "ok its done, thats
what ya get" Kind of development... its just too messy.

I think just the basic xsl transformations are enough to get new users.
Thats how I found cocoon. It was only after that I had a DUH moment and
realized my apps would be much easier to maintain and develop under cocoon.

I really think that XSP + XSL stylesheets have the capability to knock php
right out of the running. The only reason it hasn't Is's function
search. If you want to attract new people, push the simple stuff... in less
than 200kb, an entire guestbook package can be built. I don't mean to
trivialize cocoon, becuase it is meant for large scale applications, but new
people want to see simple.

For example... a newbie to php want's to send an email.. he goes to,
punches in 'mail' and now he has whole function reference with a discussion
thread. Now for cocoon, if the mail sample had a configuration file, and a
meat xsp, and all they had to do was drop the mail folder in thier app
folder, and apply thier own xsl, I think we would keep that new guy.

I'm trying for an idea here - PHP is popular because hosting providers make
it available. The first time I installed and configured PHP by myself was
ten times worse than the cocoon build. Ant kicks make's butt up and down the
street. The way to get hosting providers interested in it is to get demand
up. The way to get demand up is flashy easy stuff. Which is as simple as
guestbooks, page counters, etc that can be used out-of the box. I guess my
point is that *cocoon* - what it is, how it works isn't what needs to
attract new people, its all in the samples! That will keep them going
through the "Cocoon Frosh Week"


-----Original Message-----
From: Jorg Heymans []
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: Cocoon activity

exactly my thoughts !

those people who hang in there and push through those first difficult
days/weeks never look back. Though i'm unsure how many get lost during
those first days and give up.

maybe the total skillset needed to get a grasp on cocoon is just too
much for less experienced, dunno

but then again who said cocoon is for beginning web developers (at the

jorg wrote:

> the truth is that cocoon is not (beginners-dev)-friendly
> because many parameters (the pipeline-approach, missing IDE, less debug
> tools)
> after 2 years here and with cocoon in production from the first 2.0rc is
> still difficult for me to do something without to see an example.
> .. but i like cocoon and believe in cocoon power (thats the reason i'm
> here)
> --stavros
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
>>Alexander Schatten wrote:
>>>the whole discussion over the last weeks ist turning around that point,
>>>that most believe, that Cocoon offers a lot of oportunities particularly
>>>also for beginners, but some (including me) are arguing against the
>>>deployment as beeing user-unfriendly, hence alienating many beginners.
>>I might sound like a rogue, but if you have an itch, scratch it!
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