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From Gianluca Sartori <>
Subject Re: OT: Was: JXForms vs. Woody vs. KISS
Date Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:54:13 GMT
Il gio, 2003-10-30 alle 14:10, Ugo Cei ha scritto:
> Sorry but this approach has never worked in practice for me. Programming 
> is hard and I don't think adding another level of abstraction is going 
> to change this any time soon. Class diagrams may be cool, if used as a 
> tool for communicating design between designers and programmers, but 
> they tend to promote a top-down approach whereby coding is seen as a 
> purely mechanical activity. Realizing that it isn't so is one of the 
> greatest insights of the Agile movement.

UML was only an example. I stronlgy believe in the human nature of
software development. I understand your point and I agree with you when
you say that adding a new abstraction layer to the business logic is not
a solution to the problem.

In some cases, anyway, when the problem domain is clear (made clear by
the experence), abstraction could be usefull because it really reduce
the effort to accomplish a task in a defined set. So I'm not talking
about general solutions, or developing a paradigm starting from this

UML based CASE Tools tend to be general, for this reason they usually
add complexity instead of reducing it. A database ER Diagram instead, is
very usefull and very easy to be built because it is specific to a
domain. This way its syntax and semantic is human sized.

> Besides, Cocoon flowscript should be really only used for implementing 
> the flow between pages of your web application, whereas business logic 
> should be nicely tucked away inside a domain model. In other words, 
> flowscripts should be *very* simple, in which case I don't think you can 
> simplify them further by using a model.

Here is the point. They're simple and a model could really be written. 

This is my point of view: Models are usefull in well known
contexts/domains. By saying "well known" I mean we already have a
conceptual model (or a pattern) get from our experience in that domain.

Of course, if you are a developer you usually go with "patterns" to
describe abstractions, but if you are a user? And by "user" I mean in
therms of cocoon developers and users.


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