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From "Jay Freeman \(saurik\)" <>
Subject Re: [ANN] Apache Cocoon 2.1 Released - binary??
Date Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:48:14 GMT

Oh, I totally understand that Cocoon is a work in progress... that's
actually one of the things I like most about it :). I _did_ mention in a
reply to my original proposal on the dev-list (and was tacked to the bottom
of the forward that I gave Ralph that ended up back on the users list) that
if people liked/wanted what I was talking about (hence "had the discussion")
I was willing to try to actually do it (as in the "get on and do it

Especially in that light, although in general, I find your massive paragraph
about that to be uncalled for, and something I've seen some other projects
just start taking up as a mantra in response to any user request (remember,
a "suggestion" to add a new feature is the same thing as a "feature request"
and to a tired developer can start sounding like a "feature demand"... just
because someone on a mailing list says "this doesn't seem like the way to do
it, I think this would solve my problem better" doesn't mean they "expect"
it to be solved, it could just mean that they want everyone to know what
their usage requirements are as the developers may never have thought about
it that way). In an open source project I'd rather _assume_ that the users
understand this than the other way around. Ralph's "What I want is a
framework." is something that Stefano himself could say as the lead
developer and not neccessarily be expecting anyone other than himself to
accomplish it. "Want" doesn't imply "expectation", it only shows "desire".

*Reads that page on blocks... well, that's not true... he needs to leave in
5 minutes... rapidly skims it and bookmarks it into his "Read Soon" folder.*

ooooooo.... ok, I didn't realize that blocks were attempting to solve this
meta-problem. I was under the impression that they were only targetting the
"what parts of the framework do I need", not the "user app deployment"
problem. This _also_ deals with the WEB-INF/lib issue. I'm still somewhat
worried about the cocoon.xconf issue, but I didn't really "read" it yet and
I bet there's more that's been discussed on the mailing list and is in the
popular mindset of the developers than managed to make it into this document
anyway. This solution will be a hell of a lot better than either my proposal
or Geoff's xpatch hack.

Jay Freeman (saurik)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Upayavira" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [ANN] Apache Cocoon 2.1 Released - binary??

> What I urge in relation to this subject is patience.
> This subject has been discussed before, and the developers are aware of
> it. The current approach is better than it was, but still far from
> perfect. *And*, there is a roadmap, that plans to resolve this sort of
> thing, see:
> We have had to focus on getting 2.1 released before we could start on
> building this block system, as the block system could potentially
> involve some significant hacking at the core code. Now, 2.1 has been
> released, and you can expect the necessary work on blocks to start soon.
> So, whilst I do (I think) understand the frustration you all experience,
> please remember that Cocoon is still (and hopefully will always stay) a
> work in progress. With patience, I think you'll get the system you want.
> The thing to remember is that Cocoon is not like a commercial product,
> where complaints to the developers can get resolution because you've
> paid your fees. Cocoon is built by a network of volunteers, and where
> development happens when those developers have time and interest to
> implement improvements. If there is an improvement that the developers
> aren't undertaking yet, suggest it, then you can either wait, or even
> better, get on and do it yourself. You'll find that, if a suggestion has
> had sufficient discussion first, patches will be willingly accepted.
> This is how the developer community works - as a collection of free
> individuals.
> Hope this helps.
> Regards, Upayavira
> Ralph Goers wrote:

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