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From robert_hitch...@cargill.com
Subject RE: Re: cocoon & struts together
Date Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:59:54 GMT
Hmmm...your post prompted me to respond...Not sure how much Struts 
experience you have, but I believe a couple of your comments don't 
exactly ring true...

- "Struts is for amateurs":  Many very professional web sites have been 
built with struts...including a few that my team and I have put 
together.  It is a powerful framework for web based applications.

- "Low complexity and thus, low functionality":  Not sure where this 
concept came from, but if you go back over the entire history of 
computing technology, you will no doubt discover that the overwhelming 
majority of significant accomplishments (take OOP for example) were 
simple and elegant...ie "low complexity"...and yet offered vast 
improvements in functionality...**Low Complexity != Low Functionality**

- "High delivery and maintenance costs":  Struts is open 
source...delivery is free. If one takes the time to learn the framework 
and use it properly (just as with any other framework) the maintenance 
costs are negligible.  They only become high if you try to grab it and 
use it "off-the-shelf" without putting any effort into truly adopting 
the framework.  Granted there are ramp-up costs, and they may be 
significant based on your team's prior experience, but Struts costs are 
no greater than any other framework out there.

- "Frameworks like struts mix functionality with presentation":  The 
Struts framework is *specifically* designed to separate all portions of 
the MVC2 design model.  The presentation components, if utilized 
properly, receive their data from POJOs (plain old Java objects) that 
implement the DTO design pattern.  These DTOs are passed back and forth 
from the business layer to the presentation layer and the separation 
between the layers remains complete.  For more info on this separation 
of presentation and functionality, Chapter 3 of "Programming Jakarta 
Struts" by Chuck Cavaness is a pretty good resource.

I just want to say that I'm a great fan of both Cocoon and Struts 
(hence my subscription to this list) and I have applications in 
production that use both of them.  I find this community very helpful 
and supportive of issues that arise while trying to implement 
Cocoon...just as the Struts community is with that framework.  While 
there is a lot of overlap between the two frameworks, they are 
definitely complimentary in many areas.

Maybe someday someone will find the time to take the best of both 
worlds and combine them :-)


-----Original Message-----
From: derisor@arcor.de [mailto:derisor@arcor.de]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 6:43 PM
To: cocoon-users@xml.apache.org
Subject: Re: cocoon & struts together


Actually I'm an EJB specialist and I don't generally work on projects
conducive to web interfaces. The complexity level of the stuff I do is 
too
high. (Pharmaceutical industry and genetic research). My customers 
generally
require a higher range of functionality than a web interface can 
provide.

That being said, I do, however, do some web work which is why I took up 
the
idea of cocoon. I use the same technique that I use for GUI programming.
Basically a command centric architecture. I hate to say "struts is for
amateurs" but it kind of is. It has low complexity and thus low
functionality. It also has high cost in terms of content delivery and
maintenance costs. I personally chose to avoid all that and let Java 
objects
do all the work and let the framework just concentrate on presentation. 
Enter
cocoon.

My programs consist of allot of specially designed generators that 
generate
pure data. Then I use XSLT to translate that into the appropriate 
media. I
also use XSLT to output the forms though I am experimenting with 
reflexive
techniques that I have used in GUI applications to make generation of 
forms
be based on reflexive command analysis.

Frameworks like struts mix functionality with presentation, which IMHO 
is a
very bad thing. Its a high maintenance cost solution with a low 
development
cost. That is the wrong way around. To be professional you want high
development cost and low maintenance cost. This causes your feature turn
around, post release, to be much faster. Since you are able to react 
quickly
to the demands of your users, your company or customers win. The guy 
that
slapped it together with low development costs may make some sales 
coming out
the door, but will bleed customers as they seek more stable solutions 
with
faster turn-around time for new features and fault correction.

I guess that is a long way of saying, "put all your work into the back 
end."
Cocoon is perfect for this because you can develop custom generators to
deliver data and let a web designer with a couple weeks of training 
worry
about the XSLT translation. In the meantime your valuable programmer
resources are implementing new features and stabilizing the product.

Well that's my opinion on the matter.

-- Robert


----- Original Message -----
From: "Antonio Gallardo" <agallardo@agsoftware.dnsalias.com>
To: <cocoon-users@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: cocoon & struts together


> Robert Simmons dijo:
> > I dont think that using struts would be useful within an efficient
> > cocoon site. Cocoon takes another approach to web development that 
is,
> > in my opinion, superior to the jsp/struts approach.
>
> Thanks for the comment. I was trying to start learning about this 
stuff.
>
> As a bean specialist (a book writer) what tools you recommend to 
manage
> all the beans stuff (creation, changes, etc.)
>
> Thanks for the comments.
>
> Antonio Gallardo
>
>
>
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