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From Todd Pierce <>
Subject [OT] RE: cocoon & struts together
Date Wed, 05 Feb 2003 00:36:27 GMT
Re the comment "Frameworks like struts mix functionality with

The presumption that functionality and presentation are mixed in Struts
needs qualification. Struts is an application framework. It's most valuable
component is the application layer. The presentation layer don't have to be
JSP/taglib. You can serve out xml for presentation if you wish, or (shudder)
even Flash. 

Reasonable separation of functionality and presentation can be achieved
using any framework, if you follow 2 simple rules: Rule 1 - ensure that the
application layer does not generate any presentation. Rule 2 - ensure that
the presentation layer does not make any decisions. I use a tiles-based
template system, with screens defined in an XML doc, but y'know, what-ever. 

I'm not trying to sell Struts to hardened Cocoon users. I use both Cocoon
and Struts, but not together. Cocoon for data delivery systems, because of
its fantastic separation of content and presentation, and Struts for
business applications simply because it's such a good application framework.
I don't believe either of these technologies should be considered to be a
panacaea for the ills of the web world.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Simmons []
Sent: Wednesday, 5 February 2003 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: cocoon & struts together

Actually I'm an EJB specialist and I don't generally work on projects
conducive to web interfaces. The complexity level of the stuff I do is too
high. (Pharmaceutical industry and genetic research). My customers generally
require a higher range of functionality than a web interface can provide.

That being said, I do, however, do some web work which is why I took up the
idea of cocoon. I use the same technique that I use for GUI programming.
Basically a command centric architecture. I hate to say "struts is for
amateurs" but it kind of is. It has low complexity and thus low
functionality. It also has high cost in terms of content delivery and
maintenance costs. I personally chose to avoid all that and let Java objects
do all the work and let the framework just concentrate on presentation.

My programs consist of allot of specially designed generators that generate
pure data. Then I use XSLT to translate that into the appropriate media. I
also use XSLT to output the forms though I am experimenting with reflexive
techniques that I have used in GUI applications to make generation of forms
be based on reflexive command analysis.

Frameworks like struts mix functionality with presentation, which IMHO is a
very bad thing. Its a high maintenance cost solution with a low development
cost. That is the wrong way around. To be professional you want high
development cost and low maintenance cost. This causes your feature turn
around, post release, to be much faster. Since you are able to react quickly
to the demands of your users, your company or customers win. The guy that
slapped it together with low development costs may make some sales coming
the door, but will bleed customers as they seek more stable solutions with
faster turn-around time for new features and fault correction.

I guess that is a long way of saying, "put all your work into the back end."
Cocoon is perfect for this because you can develop custom generators to
deliver data and let a web designer with a couple weeks of training worry
about the XSLT translation. In the meantime your valuable programmer
resources are implementing new features and stabilizing the product.

Well that's my opinion on the matter.

-- Robert

----- Original Message -----
From: "Antonio Gallardo" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: cocoon & struts together

> Robert Simmons dijo:
> > I dont think that using struts would be useful within an efficient
> > cocoon site. Cocoon takes another approach to web development that is,
> > in my opinion, superior to the jsp/struts approach.
> Thanks for the comment. I was trying to start learning about this stuff.
> As a bean specialist (a book writer) what tools you recommend to manage
> all the beans stuff (creation, changes, etc.)
> Thanks for the comments.
> Antonio Gallardo
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