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From "Robert Simmons" <deri...@arcor.de>
Subject Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...
Date Mon, 10 Feb 2003 01:40:47 GMT
Well, I don't want to debate JDO vs. ODMG object mapping. I use JDO as will a
very large amount of other people. Don't judge it when you know little about
it. As for the query language, it blasts any other object based query
language to hell. As for CMP and BMP, you can toss those out the window.
Entity beans are the one blemish to EJB in my opinion. They are poorly
thought out and poorly implemented. In short, all entity beans are basically
crap.

-- Robert

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <thor@lunartek.com>
To: <cocoon-users@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 2:25 AM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


I'm familiar with BCEL and have used it to speed up JMX and reflection
based applications.
I haven't found the ODMG way to be very slow.  Are we comparing specs
to tools?  Most things can auto-deploy schemas, but very few of my
clients will use such a feature.
We've used several ODMG based solutions to take advantage of a
particular vendors enhancements, or J2C connectors.  I can say that in
the past my team of 3 have used these techniques to deliver
maintainable, workable solutions very quickly.

If you're persisting classes that you don't have control over, nor
access to the class files (don't you need access to manipulate them?)
then I'd be worried about version management and coupling.

But, I'll have another look.  Last thing, it's too bad that with JDO
they have introduced 3 query languages, rather than have one that works
for JDO, CMP-EJB, etc.

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 04:56  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:

> Yes. That is part of the specification. The enhancement is to byte
> code, not
> to native versions of the code. Therefore any JVM can read the enhanced
> files. You might look at Jakarta's BCEL project to get an idea about
> how byte
> code enhancement works.
>
> As for the ODMG vs. byte code enhancement, Id have to disagree. The
> thing I
> want out of a persistence project is a fire and forget solution. As a
> consultant, I don't get paid for providing persistence solutions. I
> get paid
> for working on what makes my clients money. Be that web purchasing or
> genetic
> engineering. I am far better off having solutions where I need to
> invest only
> small amounts of thought in how to persist data and do object to
> relational
> mapping.
>
> In addition, there are instances, many of them, where you have neither
> control of the data that needs to be stored, nor access to the class
> files
> defining these data objects. At which point the JDO approach is far
> superior.
> Lastly the JDO approach provides the ability to reverse engineer
> schemas into
> the cross JDO vendor portable JDO metadeta files. This gives enormous
> power
> when working with legacy databases.
>
> -- Robert
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <thor@lunartek.com>
> To: <cocoon-users@xml.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:37 AM
> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
> environment" ...
>
>
> Have you found that it works well for you across JVM versions and
> implementations?  The ODMG JDO works everywhere.
>
> On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 05:22  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
>
>> Point of correction. Class enhancement is not generation per se. The
>> actual
>> class files are enhanced in place. In other words the byte code
>> enhancers go
>> into the class files and alter them. The solution elegantly solves
>> some nasty
>> problems.
>>
>> -- Robert
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Robert Simmons" <derisor@arcor.de>
>> To: <cocoon-users@xml.apache.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
>> environment" ...
>>
>>
>>> Sun JDO JSR-12.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <thor@lunartek.com>
>>> To: <cocoon-users@xml.apache.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
>>> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
>>> environment"
>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
>>> generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?
>>>
>>> Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the
>>> spec
>>> ... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference
>>> implementation
>>> does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for
>>> sure
>>> (but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like
>>> it
>>> because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
>>> applications and what the server itself uses (making me less
>>> dependent
>>> on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Thor HW
>>>
>>> On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:
>>>
>>>> I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
>>>> superior
>>>> to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it.
>>>> Perhaps
>>>> it
>>>> will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
>>>> http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.
>>>>
>>>> Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
>>>> basically
>>>> rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an
>>>> object
>>>> model
>>>> using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
>>>> (raw XML
>>>> or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me"
>>>> and
>>>> it
>>>> just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence
>>>> and
>>>> schema manipulation.
>>>>
>>>> I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
>>>> about using
>>>> it in the book that I am writing.
>>>>
>>>> -- Robert
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <thor@lunartek.com>
>>>> To: <cocoon-users@xml.apache.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
>>>> environment" ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Robert:
>>>>
>>>> Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
>>>> copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon
>>>> (2.0/2.1)
>>>> and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
>>>> when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not
>>>> its
>>>> own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
>>>> available in Tomcat at some point.
>>>>
>>>> If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib
>>>> tree,
>>>> add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest
>>>> ...
>>>> Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.
>>>>
>>>> I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO
>>>> and
>>>> not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Thor HW
>>>>
>>>> On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Hy, all;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this
>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
>>>>>> development
>>>>>> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
>>>>>> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be
>>>>>> great,
>>>>>> if someone could comment on this issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the tools collection
>>>>>> --------------------
>>>>>> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
>>>>>> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> free tools:
>>>>>> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
>>>>>
>>>>> Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on
>>>>> support
>>>>> contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to
>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)
>>>>>
>>>>> Duh ;)
>>>>>
>>>>>> 3.) tomcat 4.1.18
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated
>>>>> tomcat. JBoss
>>>>> will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters
>>>>> for
>>>>> you. As
>>>>> a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 4.) cocoon-2.0.4
>>>>>
>>>>> 2.1 Hopefully soon!
>>>>>
>>>>>> 5.) eclipse
>>>>>
>>>>> See my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)
>>>>>
>>>>> URL ?
>>>>>
>>>>>> 7.) ant
>>>>>
>>>>> I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ...
>>>>> you mean
>>>>> Jakarta ant? Ok, nevermind then. =) Im currently looking at
>>>>> Krysalis'
>>>>> extensions to ant.
>>>>> http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/quickstart.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> 8.) java-1.3.1 (sun JDK on all platforms)
>>>>>
>>>>> No no .. 1.4.1!!!!!! In 1.4 there are so many COOOL things that I
>>>>> couldnt
>>>>> live without anymore.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 9.) Secureway LDAP Server (i'll switch to Open LDAP soon)
>>>>>
>>>>> Im an LDAP idiot so Ill trust you there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tools you didnt talk  about:
>>>>>
>>>>> CVS - Use it over clearcase. its powerful, free, and a pleasure to
>>>>> use.
>>>>> BugZilla - Great program!!!!! Lousy looking interface. We should
>>>>> start
>>>>> a
>>>>> project to port
>>>>>                 it to cocoon. =) However bugzilla is a great and
>>>>> free
>>>>> bugtracking system.
>>>>>
>>>>>> commercial tools:
>>>>>> 10.) clearcase cms (see below)
>>>>>
>>>>> Garbage.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 11.) xml-spy
>>>>>
>>>>> Good but confusing.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 12.) several DB-Systems
>>>>>
>>>>> all you need is Mysql baby.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ones you didnt talk about:
>>>>>
>>>>> 13) Together control center. If you can afford it, it absolutely
>>>>> kills
>>>>> any
>>>>> other IDE on the planet.
>>>>> 14) eXcelon Stylus Studio. A great XML editor. It has a bonus of
>>>>> being
>>>>> easy
>>>>> to use and allot less confusing than XML Spy.
>>>>> 15) User editors for creating static content. (FrameMaker?
>>>>> OpenOffice?
>>>>> Im
>>>>> still working on this one)
>>>>> 16) Kodo JDO. Dont leave home without it. All that nasty
>>>>> persistence
>>>>> stuff
>>>>> just goes POOOF.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> notes about the collection
>>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * All tools mentioned above fit tightly together.
>>>>>>    I use apache/tomcat since about three years now.
>>>>>>    The above combination also works fine with SSL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * After i got eclipse setup in tomcat debugging mode,
>>>>>>    i could at least double my productivity.
>>>>>>    Thanks to the tomcat site it was a matter of seconds to
>>>>>>    get it up see:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idedev-rdtomcat.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * I also managed to setup eclipse with Cocoon in less than 10
>>>>>>    minutes. OK, i did a lousy trick, but for debugging and
>>>>>>    learning how cocoon internals  work it's absolutley
>>>>>>    satisfying...
>>>>>
>>>>> Shouldnt be tough, just run tomcat (or JBoss) in debug mode with a
>>>>> socket
>>>>> attach. Then you can remote attach to the socket and you are on
>>>>> your
>>>>> way!
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * about SCM in general and Clearcase in particular:
>>>>>>    Clearcase is a quite expensive and known to be very slow
>>>>>>    SCM tool. On the other hand it is super easy to integrate.
>>>>>>    Due to exposing the data within a "virtual filesystem" you
>>>>>>    just don't see it from the users viewpoint (except checkin
>>>>>>    checkout your files).
>>>>>>    Having the clearcase integration kit for eclipse up and
>>>>>>    running comes near to a developers dream. I hope, after
>>>>>>    Rational has been incorporated into IBM, clearcase or a
>>>>>>    derivate of it will eventually find it's way into the
>>>>>>    ongoing eclipse efforts to build just another SCM. See
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      http://www.eclipse.org/technology/index.html
>>>>>>      follow the link to "stellation" at the bottom of the page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Another interesting new SCM could be subversion from
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      http://subversion.tigris.org/ ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    All of these SCM's provide directory versioning
>>>>>>    (something once you got it, you'll never want to miss again...)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * I happen to use XML-Spy since a couple of years now.
>>>>>>    Maybe i just got used to it. I like it, although i have
>>>>>>    to pay for the license. At least it helps me getting
>>>>>>    my XSCHEMA's generated in no time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My personal SAXESS story ...
>>>>>> ----------------------------
>>>>>> SAXESS stands for "System AXESS", just to get this clear;-)
>>>>>> I write this down, mainly because i got very very satisfied
>>>>>> with this especially when i compare this to what i was used
>>>>>> to in former times when open source was something, nobody
>>>>>> ever heard of...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm running my webserver on some linux box and my webapps
>>>>>> on solaris driven by tomcat. All of my code is dropped
>>>>>> into a company wide  multiplatform SCM system. I'm developing
>>>>>> with the eclipse IDE right on my Desktop machine. I'm running
>>>>>> Cocoon for the visualisation part of my projects. This is just
>>>>>> a great XML publishing tool, and i'm still only using the
>>>>>> basics of it for now. By saving my work to the SCM,
>>>>>> my testwebapp gets autodeployed on a solaris box, which
>>>>>> happens to be our testenvironment. I can setup remote debuggig
>>>>>> sessions from my desktop directly into the heart of my
>>>>>> webapplications...
>>>>>> Once i checked in my work into the SCM, my webapp gets
>>>>>> autodeployed on linux, which happens to be our website
>>>>>> server. And i bet, after fiddeling around a bit, i could
>>>>>> setup a debugging session on my customers site, while sitting
>>>>>> somewhere at a  beach, quickfix a bug, and then turn back to
>>>>>> the real life just beeing happy for the rest of the day...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A personal thank to the Open Source comunity
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Folks, Thank you very much all you, who have contributed to get
>>>>>> such a powerfull toolset up and running. I just get very excited
>>>>>> seeing this developer's dream becoming reality...
>>>>>> And sad enough i'm not sitting at a beach, but in
>>>>>> "good ol'e germany" getting to much rain and too
>>>>>> few sun (solaris is not good for everything...).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks for your attention, if your patience lasted until here ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> regards, Hussayn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
>>>>>> SAXESS Software Design GmbH
>>>>>> Neuenhöfer Allee 125
>>>>>> D-50935 Köln
>>>>>> tel.:+49 221 56011 0
>>>>>> fax.:+49 221-56011 20
>>>>>> email:dabbous@saxess.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> FAQ before posting.
>>>>>> <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> -
>>>>> -
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