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From "Gustavo Nalle Fernandes" <>
Subject RES: Cocoon is too complex for consumption?
Date Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:56:43 GMT
   Cocoon is a powerfull _framework_ used to develop XML applications and
not an out of the box product. As a framework, Cocoon architecture must be
well understood in order provide extensions that satisfies a particular
IMHO, Cocoon´s leaning curve is not steep, assuming that the -DEVELOPER-
knows XML, XSL, Namespaces, DTD, SCHEMA, HTTP,Servlets and JAVA/OOP.

-----Mensagem original-----
De: Robert Simmons []
Enviada em: sábado, 25 de janeiro de 2003 14:13
Assunto: Re: Cocoon is too complex for consumption?

I think you might already be there. Currently the concept of cocoon is a
great one. I create a piepline and cocoon shunts it from a
to b, applying the transforms and so on. Great development effort. Pardon
the language but its a shitty user effort. Just look at
one of your paragraphs in the linked archive.

"If we don't do this, not only Cocoon will get bigger and bigger (and
start appearing more as a distribution of technologies, than a
framework), but users will find it harder and harder to modify it for
their specific needs."

And that is the crux of the problem. Whoever is heading the project seems a
bit confused. People dont want to MODIFY cocoon. They
want to USE cocoon. They want to install cocoon's mechanics, then drop in
their pipelines and go. Cocoon is now trying to do all
sorts of things that dont need to be done imho. The number of features is so
staggering that gettign started is near impossible. But
as I get more into the product, I find myself saying, petulantly, "But I
just wanted the pipeline!" And that is all that I wanted.
To have a pipeline. To be able to say to cocoon, "Yeah, well ... in your
pipeline whenever someone hits URL x, go to pipeline Z and
run my custom class (which connects to ejbs and so on) and transform it with
stylesheet Y and give it back to the user.

"But you arent understanding how cocoon works Robert!" BINGO!! You hit it
right there on the head. I dont want to understand how it
works. As a user Im not interested. When reading the JBoss documentation, I
skip over all the architecture stuff and the development
stuff. As a user, this stuff is irrelevant to me. Object oriented
programmign is supposed to guarantee to provide me with an
interface and then implement some functionality. How? Who the hell cares? Im
a user of it. My prime computing expertise is in the
back end side of EJBs and issues that pertain to them. I want to USE cocoon,
not develop on it.

Possible solutions to this.

1) Rearchitect cocoon to implement some sort of deployment mechanism, such
as COB. The problem here is that then you have to get
that working with application servers and so on. The other problem is
inertia. Gettign the masses of developers to learn a
new-unstandardized deployment mechanism.

2) MERGE it with tomcat in the way JBoss has merged with tomcat. I download
JBoss and they are like "well tomcat is included." I say
"cool" and drop in my wars and go. If cocoon had a basic mechanism install
that could be installed into tomcat than the situation
would be aleviated. Users of the product drop their wars into tomcat as
normal with a sitemap file in the WEB-INF directory and
their special generators an so on in the classes directory. Cocoon magically
wires together the pipeline. No worrying about how to
configure cocoon or what properties to give it or so on. Thats left to
advanced users under the heading of "customizing your

At any rate I can see the learning curve for this product is steep. And
cocoon is mainly going o suffer from people like me. People
whoe would love to use it but dont have a month to blow trying to get a
technology to work that is merely suppsed to be an EASY way
to develop a polymorphic presentation layer.

Lastly, flaming is not an option. These are the opinions from a newbie
comming into cocoon. Readers of this list can flame all they
want but that is just hiding from the very real problems.

-- Robert

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Noels" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: Cocoon is too complex for consumption?

> Jeff Turner wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> oh, but that is unfair since you are a Cocoon committer and you have
> easier access to such things... not! ;-)
> </Steven>
> --
> Steven Noels                  
> Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
> Read my weblog at  
> stevenn at                stevenn at
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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