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From "Antonio Gallardo" <agalla...@agsoftware.dnsalias.com>
Subject Re: Cocoon is complex, HOLD ON, WHY IS THIS BOILING UP ?
Date Sun, 26 Jan 2003 05:13:03 GMT
Robert Simmons dijo:
> Java and C++ both have places to start. You can get a Hello World up in
> about 5 minutes.

If you read just the 1st tutorial I pointed you in wiki you will dont told
that.

> This isn't a game. Its not a toy. Its not something that can be said
"like it or leave it." Its a technology.

I know that. Nobody here is just playing. I do professional work too. I
builded my first Cocoon application in 2 months. Now I am starting a new
project. Who is just playing here?

> And the other newbies to this product are likely not as
> tenacious as I am and will say "well to hell with it."

I already saw that.

> Cocoon needs some SERIOUS work in the usability zone. No no,
> I don't expect to understand
> it in 12 hours. Don't be ridicules. I do expect to be able to make a
> start on understanding it in 12 hours though. Having Hello-World up in
> 12 hours is not exactly a steep request.

You told that. You started pointing things out after 12 hours.
>
> If the users have to build from source, which is NEVER a straightforward
> process, they will take off and find something easier.

I think you have mixed some things. Cocoon already let you download the
2.0.4 distribution right from the web site. Install instructions are at:

http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/installing/index.html

I think what happened here is that many people is working right with the
CVS version. Then when there are some changes, they need to download the
sources and recompile it. But you cannot do it if you dont. By the way to
compile Cocoon just run this command:

./build.sh -Dinclude.webapp.libs=true -Dinclude.scratchpad.libs=true webapp

That is all, then you need to copy the generated war file to the webapp
directory of your Tomcat installation.

> A job that has nothing to do with developing and understanding the
> architecture of cocoon. So there is a dichotomy you are missing. The
> line between the developer and the user. The USERS don't have time to
> learn Avalon and cocoon and a billion other things. All of this detail
> should be HIDDEN from them.

You are not obligated to understand Avalon, etc to understand how Cocoon
works.

When I told about philosophy I thinked about the pipelines. This is the
most important concept here. You must also learn about the sitemap. That
is the heart of Cocoon. Here you define what will be processed and how.
But this does not have nothing to do with Cocoon.

Maybe nobody told you but if you point to:

http://localhost:8080/cocoon/samples/

You will see the current examples of Cocoon.


> Right now I get the impression that if I
> ever did want to make my own generator, I would need to mount 50 jars
> into my NetBeans project. NOT AN OPTION. One jar, fine. 50, no.

The really block is a work in progress. The idea is to make independent
blocks and let people to choose what want to use.

> don't care about setting the properties of the WML serializer. I'm not
> even going to use the WML serializer.

You can remove it from the sitemap without any problem. The first part of
the sitemap is a declaration of what you want to use. I think like the
#include in C or import in Java.

By the way in this languagues you also need to know what include or import
in order to make use of the library or package.


> My goal is to snap together a web
> site, route it through cocoon with my own sitemap and pipeline and go.
> Anything I don't specify or configure should DEFAULT to pre-configured
> settings.

Look, just for taste Cocoon, you can do that without problem. Dont be
afraid you can later tune the Cocoon machine even after the application is
deployed.

I had problems here too at deployment time.... As many other Open Source
Software Cocoon comes with a minimal configuration that let you run it on
almost every machine. Of course you MUST config it when you plan to deploy
it on production environment.

> So yell "get the hell out!" all you want. People will. And instead of
> cocoon winning the race and capturing the minds and hearts of web
> publishers, it will be .NET. The whole .NET framework should teach you
> something.

I think this is out off topics. I pointed to .NET just to show that maybe
in the future the super company will have something similar to this.
Nothing more. Personally I am a Linux fan. And I am working in that way.
The same as I did it almost 10 years ago when we started to replace Novell
and UNIX in favor of NT. Our clients are happy that they are not more tied
to MS in the new application. Of course, thanks to Java they can run on MS
plataform, but currently run the application on Linux.

> If its too complex to understand, it will LOOSE no matter how
> good it is.

This is not TOO COMPLEX. As I pointed before it is just other philosophy
of developing (I mean as a user). I dont know where also you need to think
about generator, tranformers, serialization. I started to know about it
here. The pipeline concept is the base of all. No Avalon or similars.....

When the new users go to .NET and put up hello-world in 20
> minutes, cocoon wont have a chance. So cocoon has really two options in
> my newbie opinion. 1) Start putting in that layer that attracts new
> users.

Maybe yes, maybe not. Who knows? Well, almost every thing in the world
have a cost and as the people are discovering Linux and it good tools they
are tempted to use it. Just see the lastest reports about

2) Die.

Hey?! It is not about money. This is the point that MS people is not
understanding here. This is not the case of Novell: "Stop the selling and
you win". Cocoon as Linux and many other opensources projects started
without millons on bags.

> As for me personally, I'm already far behind schedule now. 2 days of
> dealing with this thing and getting nowhere. Ill give it a couple more
> hours of consideration and if I still cant get a hello-world up without
> knowing a thing about the internal architecture,

> I will move on and implement it all in JSP.

I will recomend you dont do it. Maybe you will save time now and you will
waste it when the changes will come. I really recomend you take a little
more patience and try it out. It is a worth. Currently my last client
asked me some improvements on the plataform and to be serious I am happy
because I know this is very easy now thanks to Cocoon.

When I started researching about a plataform I stoped at JSP too. But the
mess of code and tags take me away. This frustate every body when the
inevitable changes come.

> Scoff all you want. But a JSP hello-world page I was able to get up
> and working in 15 minutes.

Clear, because this is a continuity technology of the same approach. I
think in Cocoon you will start thinking in another way.

At the end, I just want to say that Cocoon is not my baby. I love it
because open a nice door in the current development effort. A
revolutionary effort.

I am not angry after all you are told about this. I dont have a clue why
can I be? ;-)

Every ones have the right to write his opinions. And I thank you because
you let me explain some of the Cocoon points here.

Best Regards,

Antonio Gallardo.





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