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From "Robert Simmons" <>
Subject Re: Cocoon is complex, HOLD ON, WHY IS THIS BOILING UP ?
Date Mon, 27 Jan 2003 07:23:44 GMT
We might consider smacking the developers around to start commenting things. Pretend you are
writing generator for the first time and you are looking at the API documentation for documentation
on what the parameters are to the AbstractGenerator.setup() method. After you are done looking
at the 0 documentation there, look around and you will see that the API is very badly commented,
if at all. 

-- Robert
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Derek Hohls 
  Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 8:10 AM
  Subject: Re: Cocoon is complex, HOLD ON, WHY IS THIS BOILING UP ?


  Hussayn is absolutely right here - there is a huge case that has built
  up over the last year for giving a "newbie-friendly" face to Cocoon.

  We can go on for hours (and have, before) about power and 
  scalability and performance and XSLT issues etc etc etc BUT
  all of those things should flow on *after* starting with Cocoon and
  NOT be part of the sales pitch.  I am not saying Cocoon should try
  and be all things to all people... but there is clearly starting to be 
  enough people who have picked up on the increased publicity around
  Cocoon and want to "give it a try" - for the most part their needs are
  simple and so their "getting" started path should be as well...  IF we
  want to keep these users in the community (if only as users ;-) THEN
  there is a very strong case to get a section of the website devoted solely
  with a newbie in mind (maybe once it is designed we can eat some 
  humble pie and go back to ask some of the previously critical newbies
  to crit it for us) - ideally this should be quite separate from the main 
  site [with an equivalent "DONT PANIC" sign pointing clearly to it from
  the index page].  Everything on that subsite should be geared towards
  a promise of "3 hours (or whatever time frame seems reasonable) until 
  your first app" type of message. Work?  Of course, but, maybe not as
  much as we think - all the bits and pieces are there (some on wiki, some
  on mailing list, some on main site)  but just need to be assembled with
  thought and care (eg. no confusing links to obsure and non-relevant pages
  on the main site etc).  Benefits?  An influx of "new blood" and, maybe 
  (dare I say it) some converts from the jsp/.net/php camps.

  Is xml/xsl really dead (as has been suggested)?  If we don't think so
  it should really be possible to demonstrate this in a straightforward way!

  My 2c for the bonfire.  


  PS And yes, I am willing to help with testing and critical review of docs
  and installing etc - and, once it looks reasonable, willing to coerce 2 of
  my newbie colleagues, who have previously expressed interest in Cocoon,
  to try it out "cold".


  >>> 26/01/2003 01:49:53 >>>
  I wonder why sometimes when it comes to criticism of cocoon
  the arguments fly higher and higher until someone gets
  really pissed of and angry ...

  And why is it so many times a newbie who becomes the center
  of this game ? (Also one of my first newbie questions boiled
  up beyond the limits, but i'm still there ...)

  Please dont missunderstand me. In general i think the comunity
  takes care of many many questions and very valuable information
  is flowing around, but we also should take special care about any
  strong criticism on cocoon. And especially the newbies can give
  so valuable insight, even if they seem to be ignorant (they
  aren't ignorant at all. They are new to this !!!)

  Maybe we should calm down a bit and take this thread really
  serious. It contains much of material to think about.
  And in many senses the criticism here can't be discussed

  regards, hussayn

  Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
  SAXESS Software Design GmbH
  Neuenhöfer Allee 125
  50935 Köln
  Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
  Fax:     +49-221-56011-20

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