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From "Robert Simmons" <deri...@arcor.de>
Subject Re: Cocoon is too complex for consumption?
Date Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:00:09 GMT
Well you are wrong. I know all of those and some of them QUITE well. And still getting cocoon
going is a major hassle. Yes, I can
deploy the distribution but I mean getting my own application going. Just a hello-world app.

-- robert

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gustavo Nalle Fernandes" <gustavonf@terra.com.br>
To: <cocoon-users@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 5:56 PM
Subject: RES: Cocoon is too complex for consumption?


>    Cocoon is a powerfull _framework_ used to develop XML applications and
> not an out of the box product. As a framework, Cocoon architecture must be
> well understood in order provide extensions that satisfies a particular
> need.
> IMHO, Cocoon´s leaning curve is not steep, assuming that the -DEVELOPER-
> knows XML, XSL, Namespaces, DTD, SCHEMA, HTTP,Servlets and JAVA/OOP.
>
>
>
> -----Mensagem original-----
> De: Robert Simmons [mailto:derisor@arcor.de]
> Enviada em: sábado, 25 de janeiro de 2003 14:13
> Para: cocoon-users@xml.apache.org
> Assunto: Re: Cocoon is too complex for consumption?
>
>
> I think you might already be there. Currently the concept of cocoon is a
> great one. I create a piepline and cocoon shunts it from a
> to b, applying the transforms and so on. Great development effort. Pardon
> the language but its a shitty user effort. Just look at
> one of your paragraphs in the linked archive.
>
> <quote>
> "If we don't do this, not only Cocoon will get bigger and bigger (and
> start appearing more as a distribution of technologies, than a
> framework), but users will find it harder and harder to modify it for
> their specific needs."
> </quote>
>
> And that is the crux of the problem. Whoever is heading the project seems a
> bit confused. People dont want to MODIFY cocoon. They
> want to USE cocoon. They want to install cocoon's mechanics, then drop in
> their pipelines and go. Cocoon is now trying to do all
> sorts of things that dont need to be done imho. The number of features is so
> staggering that gettign started is near impossible. But
> as I get more into the product, I find myself saying, petulantly, "But I
> just wanted the pipeline!" And that is all that I wanted.
> To have a pipeline. To be able to say to cocoon, "Yeah, well ... in your
> pipeline whenever someone hits URL x, go to pipeline Z and
> run my custom class (which connects to ejbs and so on) and transform it with
> stylesheet Y and give it back to the user.
>
> "But you arent understanding how cocoon works Robert!" BINGO!! You hit it
> right there on the head. I dont want to understand how it
> works. As a user Im not interested. When reading the JBoss documentation, I
> skip over all the architecture stuff and the development
> stuff. As a user, this stuff is irrelevant to me. Object oriented
> programmign is supposed to guarantee to provide me with an
> interface and then implement some functionality. How? Who the hell cares? Im
> a user of it. My prime computing expertise is in the
> back end side of EJBs and issues that pertain to them. I want to USE cocoon,
> not develop on it.
>
> Possible solutions to this.
>
> 1) Rearchitect cocoon to implement some sort of deployment mechanism, such
> as COB. The problem here is that then you have to get
> that working with application servers and so on. The other problem is
> inertia. Gettign the masses of developers to learn a
> new-unstandardized deployment mechanism.
>
> 2) MERGE it with tomcat in the way JBoss has merged with tomcat. I download
> JBoss and they are like "well tomcat is included." I say
> "cool" and drop in my wars and go. If cocoon had a basic mechanism install
> that could be installed into tomcat than the situation
> would be aleviated. Users of the product drop their wars into tomcat as
> normal with a sitemap file in the WEB-INF directory and
> their special generators an so on in the classes directory. Cocoon magically
> wires together the pipeline. No worrying about how to
> configure cocoon or what properties to give it or so on. Thats left to
> advanced users under the heading of "customizing your
> install".
>
> At any rate I can see the learning curve for this product is steep. And
> cocoon is mainly going o suffer from people like me. People
> whoe would love to use it but dont have a month to blow trying to get a
> technology to work that is merely suppsed to be an EASY way
> to develop a polymorphic presentation layer.
>
> Lastly, flaming is not an option. These are the opinions from a newbie
> comming into cocoon. Readers of this list can flame all they
> want but that is just hiding from the very real problems.
>
> -- Robert
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steven Noels" <stevenn@outerthought.org>
> To: <cocoon-users@xml.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 3:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Cocoon is too complex for consumption?
>
>
> > Jeff Turner wrote:
> >
> > > http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=BlocksDefinition
> > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=101603335007960&w=2
> > > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=101732982704553&w=2
> >
> > oh, but that is unfair since you are a Cocoon committer and you have
> > easier access to such things... not! ;-)
> >
> > </Steven>
> > --
> > Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
> > Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
> > Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
> > stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
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> >
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> >
>
>
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