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From Vegan Portal <>
Subject RE: sexy open source
Date Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:41:02 GMT
Hello again, Peter,

 --- "Hunsberger, Peter" <>
> JBoss 3 was still alpha when we started this release
> cycle.  Jan./Feb. will
> be our first chance to consider using it.
Fine. I think till that time is 3rd generation of
JBoss mature enough to make easy migration possible.
As for now (after I spent two weeks on it),
integration of not already preconfigured services
(like Cocoon or alien DBs) is very buggy or not
documented (even in commercial support), so I beter
give up on trying to get it working.

> > b) Do you have to write the proxies for every EJB
> > manually or is there automatized solution?
> We manually write the code. 90% of the time it's
> just thin layer wrappers,
> but every once in a while there is some other
> encapsulation.  In particular,
> polymorphic methods that all populate the same data
> class for retrieval but
> in different ways.  There are some philosophical
> differences on how pure a
> proxy should be. Personally, I don't have a problem
> with a proxy
> interpreting my intentions with a slightly different
> implementation then I
> may be aware of.  For me, that's one of the benefits
> of using a proxy.
I've awaited this and it is fine with me. Writting
little Java to get rid of unfullfilled standard
integration problems is a way to go in such a dynamic
situation. Maybe the interface gets cleared up and
broadly supported in (near) future; my taste of open
source is that nobody is eager to support universal
access to obsolete but established technologies if
there is an innovative solution replacing them... I'm
afraid previous sentences make little sense to
readers, but English is far of being my mother tongue
and it's going late here for me to express such an
abstract observation clearly.

> > b) Are you able to use load balancing and other
> > administration of JBoss fully with no negatives on
> > running system?
> Pretty much so.  However, currently all production
> deployments are still on
> Websphere with scheduled down time.  This will
> change once the current
> release makes it to production, but so far there are
> no plans to build a hot
> fail over environment.
Oh yeah, good old Websphere. I wish I could get back
to it with many problems solved as such or with costly
support in change of not integrating the newest
features, but my tight budget doesn't allow this. I
hope JBoss could serve your needs after migration.

> > d) Do the efforts with J2EE pay off really better
> > performance and manageability against simple
> Tomcat
> > approach according your experience?
> Architectures are based on business needs.  (If
> you'd like to pay me to
> analyze your business requirements and determine the
> appropriate
> architecture for your needs I might be open to
> offers...)
Yes, the business technology needs should be evaluted
by experts. It may cost something, but prevents lame
failures. That's what open source core developers are
living from and that's nice. My dream of far future is
to become even expert consulting for free, just for
the feeling and experience to bring reusable solutions
to community and move to higher level of making the
world a better place to live, supported as a general
movement by people who have money and share the
excitement with poor developers... [Ignore this, past
anarchist is getting insane heading again just minimal
four hours to sleep...]
Honestly, I went through, nice idea, but if
you'd decipher my nick, I'm quite uncomfortable with
basic research exploiting animals with little or no
actual use at all for all those unfortunate children -
probably dictated by industry-driven NCI and others. I
hope you work to catalogize only really valuable
clinical research e.g. non-invasive statistical
environment observation to help to discover most
valuable prevention possibilities. Worth a quarrel
between us...
Moreover, I'm (fortunatelly) not the one giving money
out here. Nevertheless, although miles away, you are
looking like to be a suitable consultant for us with
enough spare time. Wait till I discuss your possible
involvement with those sitting on cash, then I'll
contact you directly. Quick but informed expertise is

Going on,

 For our case the
> business requirements don't necessarily dictate a
> J2EE architecture and the
> learning curve was sufficiently long that knowing
> what we know now we might
> not have done it.  However, having climbed the
> learning curve there is
> definitely no reason to go back.
You mean J2EE was too big calibre for your
requirements but after you got into it, you wanted not
to give up on possible features? It's probably similar
situation as we are in, wanting to get one custom
solution working ASAP, but looking up to more abstract
framework for an unique kind of Internet-based busines
for being extended and developed further on
open-source basis. The balance between those two
targets is needed.

> > e) Do you use JBoss in any custom or standarized
> means
> > also for authentification and authorisation for
> Cocoon
> > resources or would it be too complicated to
> implement?
> We're doing custom authentication.  We've looked at
> realm based
> authentication but we have a complex security model
> in a complex application
> and so far there hasn't been a good fit.
I agree. Realm-based JAAS security is nice but not
really going to work from scratch outside J2EE. I've
decided to use better the concept of SunRise
authentification - finally the documents in Cocoon's
sitemap are those to be protected.

> > f) Would you be so nice to post some (almost out
> of
> > the box) working demo illustrating your
> application
> > workflow?
> Sorry, I can't do that.  The application is a)
> proprietary, and b) still
> under development.  There are over 500 Java classes,
> over 10 generic XSLT
> and a highly abstracted, highly normalized schema
> covering some 50 tables.
> The architecture document is over 200 pages and
> would barely get down to the
> level of detail that you want...  There is no preset
> workflow within the
> application (it's a generic application for
> capturing the results of
> Clinical Trials), 
Accepted. Seems like solutions implemented in Cocoon
are, at this stage of Cocoon in general, hardly
universal enough to be taken over (even in part) by
another business models. That's the deal, I think.
Cocoon is easy to customize, but then it is hard to
find reusable patterns, till some next evolution
comes. SunRise is a good try, but I suspect nobody is
using it as a whole to extend it, many only assemble
suitable parts of SunRise to suit their needs.
Thank you for your involvement,


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