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From Paul Gilligan <>
Subject Re: Giving up! Cocoon too big, slow and confusing
Date Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:01:52 GMT
Dear all,

Cocoon II is good :) but under development which we all must understand.

This means that it is a process.

Which means that things will change.

Which means that the docs and examples will.

Which makes us all sad.

What we need todo is wait for a good stable JDK1.4 version of coccon II 
to make our lives
a little less complicated. As you all know jdk1.4 has lots of the bits & 
bobs that we have to setup
by ourselves using jdk1.3 for example. From there we can work on the 
examples & books etc.

I like the idea... I am going to use 1.8 for my production work but 
still very keen on C2!


Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

> daniel robinson wrote:
>> My .02,
>> Thanks to Eric, Argyn and John for their honesty.  And thanks to all 
>> of the Cocoon developers for their hard work and vision.  I would 
>> like to add my comments to the reality check that is going on.
>> I have over 17 years experience in the industry and have led 
>> developer teams working on commercial software projects.  I am an 
>> expert Java programmer as well as C/C++ and others.  I have worked on 
>> multiple operating systems.  I love a challenge.  I'm not bragging 
>> (believe me I don't think any of this stuff is anything to brag about 
>> in the REAL world :) ), but I want to do a level-set as to who is 
>> doing the talking.
> You don't mention programming in the XML field.
> This is paramount.
>> I embraced this project because:
>> 1) It had the Apache "stamp of approval"
>> 2) It said it was > version 2.0
>> 3) The technological vision and approach seemed (and still seem) to 
>> be the correct one.
>> What I wanted:
>> 1) To get a simple web site up fast and lay the groundwork for 
>> subsequent versions (see
> The example webapp.
> Full of prebuilt parts.
> What's the problem?
>> 2) To use open source for all the right reasons.
> What are they?
>> What I experienced:
>> 1) An incredibly steep learning curve that has no end in sight.  I 
>> have NEVER worked on a project where I spent a hard 6 weeks slogging 
>> through a technology and had NO IDEA when it was going to end.
> Too generic. What don't you understand?
> What do you expect and doesn't work as you expect?
>> 2) Documentation is not usefull - sorry.  I've tried and tried.  The 
>> closest it has come to being useful is that after I've spent hours on 
>> something and asked questions on the mail lists I have been able to 
>> go back to it and say "oh.. that's what they meant"
> What documents were not helpful in what cases?
> What couldn't you find?
> How did you search for it?
>> 3) Serious problems (hours lost) upgrading from 2.0 to 2.0.2 - 
>> looking at the change logs for potential hints at what was necessary 
>> was a non-starter.
> What were the serious problems? (hours lost is not a problem, it's the 
> result of the problem)
>> 4) Generally helpful but inconsistant responses from the mail lists. 
>> You should seriously consider joining the two lists as all it is 
>> doing right now is making me have to search both lists for everything 
>> that i'm looking for.  Many of the questions were answered in a way 
>> which built character but were much too cryptic to be helpful to 
>> anyone who comes later.  (I'm sure this is because the really 
>> knowledgeable people are spending too much time answering e-mails).
> We give help. *Not* complete solutions. We are not paid for it, it's 
> all free help.
>> My conclusions:
>> 1) Almost by definition this should not be a released product - sorry 
>> but true.  Someone should define what is meant by alpha, beta and 
>> released software - also the meaning of point releases.
> This is not a shrink-wrapped software.
>> 2) I don't have time to read the source code - not because I can't or 
>> won't from some misplaced belief that it shouldn't be necessary - 
>> because I don't believe it would be time well spent - too much of a 
>> lack of basic doco to make it worth the time.
> Sorry but I don't get it.
> We have *tons* of documentation. But you just gotta learn ;-)
>> 3) I will continue to maintain the current web site in Cocoon while I 
>> research alternatives.  I am going to keep an open mind and hope that 
>> the forthcoming books will be of assistance - however I don't see how 
>> this will be since there have been significant changes (forms and 
>> authentication system to just name a few at the feature level) since 
>> those books have gone to publishing.
> Forms and authentication systems are not changed. We have new ones.
> Did you ever think that nio is a change to io package?
> What you wrote is completely useless to me, sorry.
> If you really want to help us, and it seems you do, please explain the 
> real problems in terms of
> - what you want to achieve.
> - how you did it
> - what you assumed correct and don't see working
> - where-how you searched for a solution
> - how you tried solving the problem
> - what you would have wanted to see-find
> All these *concrete* examples would really help us.
> Thank you.

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