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From Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert <>
Subject Re: Why isn't Cocoon making into the commerical world?
Date Fri, 29 Mar 2002 04:28:43 GMT
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Thor HW

3/28/2002 7:11:32 PM, Rob Jellinghaus <> wrote:

>My unsolicited opinion:
>I just ran across Cocoon because I am an contributor (did 
>some work last summer on Axis).  Cocoon has very little visibility outside 
>of Apache.
>I think that Cocoon is designed and built mostly by programmers, and hasn't 
>been marketed well (or indeed at all!).  It doesn't really fit into any 
>specific product niche -- it falls right in between the Java infrastructure 
>world (dominated by EJBs) and the XML infrastructure world (dominated by XSL).
>What is its direct competition?  A variety of other content management 
>systems, foremost of which is probably Zope (an open-source Python CMS with 
>a good web UI but no XSL underpinnings).  This is an evolving sector.  If 
>you look on Google for "content management system" or "Java XSLT" you will 
>probably turn up rather more hits....
>IMHO the main difficulty with Cocoon right now is how hard it is to 
>learn.  I am spending most of this week just coming to grips with the 
>basics.  It is *not* easy to dive right into the system and understand 
>(say) exactly how the esql sample page gets converted into html (i.e. what 
>exactly are all the steps of the pipeline, and where are they defined in 
>the various sitemaps / logicsheets / stylesheets).  Nor is it easy to know 
>where to start when creating a new site, with a new CSS foundation and all 
>new templates.
>I would love (and may work on developing) a "starter web application" under 
>Cocoon, with its own local sitemap and its own templates... sort of a 
>"hello world webapp" totally contained in one directory.
>Right now Cocoon is really best suited for programmers with lots of time to 
>learn a new (albeit powerful) tool.  In order to get wider adoption, Cocoon 
>will need *even more* attention paid to making it easy for newbies to start 
>working with it -- not only more tutorials along the lines of CTwiG, but 
>also more (and more functional!) sample applications, and probably even 
>more web-based management tools (since doing *all* Cocoon administration by 
>editing XML files is not exactly easy -- try out Zope for an example of a 
>different, simpler, approach).
>I do still like Cocoon, in theory, but the learning curve is daunting and 
>it's still not clear I will be able to spend enough time on it to start 
>getting good results.
>At 06:28 PM 3/28/2002 -0800, Steven Punte wrote:
>>Dear Cocoon User Group:
>>    First of all, I LOVE the Cocoon framework,
>>    I'm a total believer, and expecially love
>>    how Cocoon2 is turning out!
>>    Cocoon seems just awesomely powerfully, years
>>    ahead of the classical architectures proposed
>>    by Sun (i.e. JSP to ServletBeans to EJBs...).
>>    But how come there is NO (i.e. ABSOLUTELY NO)
>>    demand for Cocoon expertise in the US market?
>>    Type in key word "java" and retrieve 3500 hits
>>    on  Type in key word "cocoon"
>>    and get ZERO!
>>    Is it all just a dream?
>>        Steve
>>    No need to reply if "your" commerical project
>>    is using it: congradulation.  But the bigger
>>    picture is my question.
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®
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