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From "Jeremy Aston" <>
Subject RE: .NET vs. Cocoon
Date Fri, 16 Nov 2001 23:26:43 GMT
Hi Jeremy (top name btw ;-))

As other posters have pointed out .NET (ASP at the mo really) is not a
framework in the way C2 is hence you are not really comparing like to like.
No doubt you could build a .NET version of Cocoon but as far as I can see
most ASP apps have one big problem that overrides all - the developers.  The
great thing about MS is that they open up alot of technology, give heaps of
info away but this all comes at a price.  Many asp apps are hacks (in the
crap coding sense of the word).  Many (not all) ASP developers use the neat
tools MS give ya to pull stuff together and end up writing unstable,
unscalable, unmanagable hacks.  They have no real understanding of design
and good web app architecture and write crap.  Talk to them about lowl level
site customisation, branding, internationalisation, content management and
you see the eyes glaze over.  I know I have just taken over a team of

You can write a dog of an app with J2EE.  There are plenty of charlatans
posing as Java developers.  JSP has all the problems of ASP and is equally
hacked.  No doubt there will be many things that will be exposed as bad
practice with C2 BUT....

To really get into Java demands a certain level of OO understanding and C2
is built on some best practice of how to solve MVC issues.  Work with Cocoon
(and/or other frameworks such as Struts) and you are working within an
environment that is encouraging best practice.  On top of that you have got
open source, a thriving community and lots of free code.  To me Cocoon (and
J2EE for that matter) is all about web *application* development not merely
adding some dynamic stuff to a web site.

Don't get me wrong - you can build quality sites using ASP, good design
practice applies across the board and MS have their approaches for multi
channel delivery but there are loads more ASP hackers (again in the dodgy
sense of the word) that ASP developers.  .NET will just compound that cos ti
will solve problems but not educate the development community enough.

I know the problem is really coders who don't know enough about design but I
believe that the ASP/.NET approach helps coders ignore and bypass design -
many more Java based coders understand good design and C2 et al are great
applications of that.

All my ever so humble opinion but I am sure I'll need to duck the

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jeremy Crosbie []
  Sent: 16 November 2001 18:49
  To: ''
  Subject: .NET vs. Cocoon

  I work for a company who's presence is mostly associated with the wireless
web although we do have a web presence. We support all sorts of devices
(PDAs, phones, PocketPC, etc.) with each essentially having its own separate
codebase which has become a maintenance nightmare. With WAP2.0 coming soon
to a phone near you we want to avoid having to support so many codebases.

  We realized this as a problem some months ago and began evaluating
different technologies. I had been following Cocoon for some time and now
with Cocoon in the release candidate stage it looks to be a solid solution.
However another alternative has presented itself in the form of .NET which
has gained some momentum. As far as my knowledge goes with .NET I still find
Cocoon to be a superior solution to the problem than .NET. Has anyone done
any comparisons between the two platforms that they are willing to share?
Any information is greatly appreciated.

  Jeremy Michael Crosbie

  Senior Software Engineer

  go2Address: US.CA.IRV.GO2

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