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From Jeremy Crosbie <>
Subject RE: .NET vs. Cocoon
Date Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:47:19 GMT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeremy Aston [] 
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 3:27 PM
> To:
> Subject: RE: .NET vs. Cocoon
> Hi Jeremy (top name btw ;-))

Thanks! Always nice to hear from another Jeremy.

> As other posters have pointed out .NET (ASP at the mo really) is not a
> framework in the way C2 is hence you are not really comparing like to
> like.  No doubt you could build a .NET version of Cocoon but as far as I
> can see most ASP apps have one big problem that overrides all - the
> developers.  

I am not looking to build a .NET version of Cocoon but I guess comparing a
technological possibility in Cocoon with one in .NET: I am looking to
compare development of wireless applications for multiple platforms. As far
as developers, in my experience I mostly agree. However one guy I work with
is a big ASP/MS developer and he has some pretty good skills. Ashame that
they go to waste :)

> The great thing about MS is that they open up alot of
> technology, give heaps of info away but this all comes at a price.  Many
> asp apps are hacks (in the crap coding sense of the word).  Many (not
> all) ASP developers use the neat tools MS give ya to pull stuff together
> and end up writing unstable, unscalable, unmanagable hacks.  They have
> no real understanding of design and good web app architecture and write
> crap.  Talk to them about lowl level site customisation, branding,
> internationalisation, content management and you see the eyes glaze
> over.  I know I have just taken over a team of them...

This is one of the things that scares me about .NET. I am watching how web
applications are developed which is now like developing a VB app: create the
gui and write the code behind it. However there is only so far you can go
with VB. Is this the case with .NET? These are the kinds of questions I am
trying to answer.

> You can write a dog of an app with J2EE.  There are plenty of charlatans
> posing as Java developers.  JSP has all the problems of ASP and is
> equally hacked.  No doubt there will be many things that will be exposed
> as bad practice with C2 BUT....
> To really get into Java demands a certain level of OO understanding and
> C2 is built on some best practice of how to solve MVC issues.  Work with
> Cocoon (and/or other frameworks such as Struts) and you are working
> within an environment that is encouraging best practice.  On top of that
> you have got open source, a thriving community and lots of free code.
> To me Cocoon (and J2EE for that matter) is all about web *application*
> development not merely adding some dynamic stuff to a web site.

I don't know how many of you have seen this:

But if you read the FAQ MS openly attacks the MVC (Model2) architecture:

"The .NET Pet Shop follows a component-based design pattern that is very
applicable to large-scale systems.  For large scale Web applications in the
enterprise, we believe this design pattern is superior to the Model View
Controller (MVC) architecture used in the Java Pet Store."

After looking at the code all this seems to mean is that they bundle up
functionality, essentially coupling business and presentation logic. I just
shake my head in disbelief, but then I remember the audience they are
targeting and it all makes sense.

> Don't get me wrong - you can build quality sites using ASP, good design
> practice applies across the board and MS have their approaches for multi
> channel delivery but there are loads more ASP hackers (again in the
> dodgy sense of the word) that ASP developers.  .NET will just compound
> that cos ti will solve problems but not educate the development
> community enough.


> I know the problem is really coders who don't know enough about design
> but I believe that the ASP/.NET approach helps coders ignore and bypass
> design - many more Java based coders understand good design and C2 et al
> are great applications of that.

Agreed. I get the feeling that if Microsoft can't do something well (as in
MVC) then they con developers into thinking it is bad. MS appears to be
equating MVC with J2EE and the audience MS is targeting have probably never
heard of MVC prior to this.

> All my ever so humble opinion but I am sure I'll need to duck the
> incoming......

I appreciate the response.

> jez
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeremy Crosbie []
> Sent: 16 November 2001 18:49
> To: ''
> Subject: .NET vs. Cocoon
> I work for a company who's presence is mostly associated with the
> wireless web although we do have a web presence. We support all sorts of
> devices (PDAs, phones, PocketPC, etc.) with each essentially having its
> own separate codebase which has become a maintenance nightmare. With
> WAP2.0 coming soon to a phone near you we want to avoid having to
> support so many codebases.
> We realized this as a problem some months ago and began evaluating
> different technologies. I had been following Cocoon for some time and
> now with Cocoon in the release candidate stage it looks to be a solid
> solution. However another alternative has presented itself in the form
> of .NET which has gained some momentum. As far as my knowledge goes with
> .NET I still find Cocoon to be a superior solution to the problem than
> .NET. Has anyone done any comparisons between the two platforms that
> they are willing to share? Any information is greatly appreciated.
> Jeremy Michael Crosbie
> Senior Software Engineer
> go2Address: US.CA.IRV.GO2

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