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From Ulrich Mayring <>
Subject Re: AW: [C2] Redirects
Date Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:17:04 GMT
Berin Loritsch wrote:
> No, I'm saying, "don't use redirects when another tool will work better".
> I'm challenging the concept that you _have_ to use redirects to control
> program flow.

Ok, you're saying I should select my logic from inside Beans. I don't
use Beans for various reasons and think I shouldn't be forced to just to
do program flow. Redirects are part of HTTP, they were invented to be
used as a standard way to do program flow. I prefer this to proprietary
methods, but of course others may think differently.

> > I'm not necessarily a big fan of redirects, but there is no other way
> > currently to control web program flow and now Cocoon2 is taking that
> > away as well :)
> That is a common misconception.  Program flow is dependant on selecting
> the propper web resource.

I think it's better to select Web resources via HTTP, not via Beans or
other non-Web techniques.

> If you have one URI for a whole form flow, you
> can use an action to return the name of the resource you want to select.

Yes, but I don't want to have one URI for my whole application. I want
to break it down into re-usable parts, in Web apps I like modular
designs better than monolithic ones.

> That means that at the same URI you will have a number resources.  Many
> times for web applications (at least the ones I write) you have one entry
> point, and you are forcing a flow on the user.  These are prime examples
> of what I was talking about.  Here is a possible sitemap entry:

Unfortunately, a look at my Visio charts tells me that I have many entry
points and a lot of sharing between workflows.

> Most scripting languages (like JSP, ASP, ColdFusion) have made us think that
> redirects are the only way of handling program flow.  That is because that is
> the only mechanism they gave you.  Cocoon challenges that assumption just as
> it challenges the assumption that your URI space has to match the filesystem.

Well, at least Cocoon allows me to match URI space with the filesystem,
while it doesn't allow me to handle program flow via redirects. At least
not without a major redesign of my application. It's hard for me to
argue your points, because I can't really just sit down and try it out -
I'd have to completely redesign my applications just to verify your
ideas. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do that currently, so I
can only argue from a theoretical point.

Maybe Cocoon2 can do what I need after all, but it'll have to wait until
I find more time. By the time that happens we'll have a complete
Avalon-based infrastructure here running all our internal processes with
the exception of the Cocoon1 apps and the SOAP services. That would
probably be a good time to re-visit Cocoon2, perhaps it can even be
installed as a .sar application by then :)


Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Systementwicklung

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